You are currently viewing Episode 254: Low Libido Joe

Episode 254: Low Libido Joe

What should a woman think about a man who doesn’t initiate sex much and doesn’t even seem to want it?  She wonders if he’s even attracted to her. Laurie and George explore his mind, heart and body’s experience before, during and after sex to see what really goes on, what his secret fears and hidden insecurities are.

Check out our sponsors Uberlube and Manscaped. Use the coupon code Foreplay when you check out!


Laurie Watson 00:02
We’re back talking about Joe who is, you know, the sexual withdraw. And he has a point of view that we wanted to go through the mind, the body, the heart and the Spirit. And George is going to do that. So listen in. Welcome to foreplay radio couples in sex therapy. I’m Laurie Watson, your sex therapist.

George Faller 00:24
And I’m George Faller, a couples therapist,

Laurie Watson 00:27
and we are passionate about talking about sex and helping you develop a way to talk to each other.

George Faller 00:32
Our mission is to help our audience develop a healthier relationship to sex that integrates the mind, the heart and the body.

Laurie Watson 00:42
For a great personal lubricant, please check out oo and use the coupon foreplay to support us at the podcast.

George Faller 00:49
Thanks, G. I don’t want to talk about this Laurie

Laurie Watson 00:53
z. Come on. This you got to roleplay this. That’s right. That’s

George Faller 00:58
why I don’t want to talk about this. Why do you always got to bring sucks up?

Laurie Watson 01:02
I mean, what’s the problem? I know the problem is we got to talk about sex.

George Faller 01:08
Why? parents never talked about sex. Why do you always want to talk about it?

Laurie Watson 01:13
Wow, I want it to be great for you and I want it to be great for us.

George Faller 01:18
Fine, I’ll do it. What do you want me to do? Okay,

Laurie Watson 01:21
so I got a bunch of questions for you.

George Faller 01:23
You have fun out. Oh, sounds fun. Playing Come on. Let’s go.

Laurie Watson 01:28
Joe. Tell me I want to ask you what you feel before sex. Like, tell me about what you’re thinking about. What is your mind like before sex? So you know, maybe it’s an evening just had dinner? I think about sex. What What do I try

George Faller 01:49
not to overthink these things. And, you know, I like sex to be spontaneous. I feel like too much pressure. If you think about I just like to not think about sex.

Laurie Watson 01:59
Okay? See, you don’t really think about it. You want it to be spontaneous. When you’re not thinking about it. And you say you want it to be spontaneous you then what triggers you to want to have sex,

George Faller 02:12
you know, just waiting for the when things are calm, and we kind of seem like we’re enjoying each other and then all sudden just kind of usually pops up and I kind of maybe act on that. We got I don’t like to overthink these things.

Laurie Watson 02:29
Okay, don’t overthink it. So you’re just you’re kind of in the moment. And something will tell you that it’s time to be sexual. In that evening. Where’s your heart? Is your heart moving towards? Let me give some scores. Okay, give me a score. I’m sorry. You’re a boy. Give me a score. Where’s your mind in terms of directed towards sex?

George Faller 02:57
My think my erotic mind is pretty, pretty low. I probably give it like, I might think about something quickly, but I probably give it like, three.

Laurie Watson 03:09
Just to three. Okay. Yeah. So your mind is not particularly directed there? No. Okay. What about your heart? Is your heart thinking about the partnership and love and you remembering romantic times? Or?

George Faller 03:30
No, I mean, it’s more about me just kind of having a good time and not a lot of stress and just looking for it to be kind of peaceful. So I don’t really think a lot about romance and I just want to have a nice time. So I’d probably say that score is probably like, I don’t know, four.

Laurie Watson 03:51
Four. Okay. Did I lie? I really am. I’m hearing I’m really sorry. Really important that things stay calm and relaxed for you.

George Faller 03:59

Laurie Watson 04:00
Okay, calm and relaxed. And what happens when I’m sort of purposeful in setting the scene and romance? what goes on in your heart in your mind when I go, we’re headed in this way. And

George Faller 04:15
so you’re talking about open heart a fear for a lot here. Laura and I were talking about better categories to organize this stuff.

Laurie Watson 04:23
Yeah. So yeah, I’m checking in. Once you start to feel pressure for sex. What do you feel like? Once you know your partner is wanting sex or has an expectation? What cuz I

George Faller 04:35
would say that, that’s pretty high. That I just, you know, I want it to go right. I know, once we have sex, we always feel closer afterwards. I know we haven’t had sex probably in a while. It’s a good thing to have sex. So I do feel as pressure. I just want it to go well.

Laurie Watson 04:54
So you want it to go well, so are you a little anxious In your heart or that you just want to you want me to be happy. What’s the? Yeah, you know?

George Faller 05:10
If I’m honest, I’m concerned about my, am I going to maintain an erection? You know, is my wife going to be satisfied? I think about things that could go wrong.

Laurie Watson 05:22
Okay, what do you feel in your body? i? I’m sorry, I’m late. Let me just,

George Faller 05:29
I don’t know why Laurie’s laugh at that average Joe here.

I’m sorry, average Joe. Okay, so why don’t want to talk about this stuff.

Laurie Watson 05:38
Okay, so tell me, first of all, in part, your heart is saying I really want her to be happy. And so you’re really concerned. You want it to be good for her? And what is your body telling you at that point? Like, tell me about your whole body experience? Do you want to sit on the couch together and snuggle? Or do you want to?

George Faller 05:59
I don’t really pay attention too much to my body.

Laurie Watson 06:03
You don’t Okay, so you you don’t know if? Did you come in and hug? You know, did you

George Faller 06:08
pay much attention or not? He really just, I guess I am thinking a lot. I’m trying to think about you know, when where how, like, I guess my brain is trying to read signals is she wanted if she had a mood, am I and I mean, I’m just there is a lot of thinking going on. I don’t really notice a lot of my body. Hmm.

Laurie Watson 06:32
What about your channels?

George Faller 06:34
I mean, I am definitely paid attention to my genitals. Like if, if something turns me on. I kind of like, Oh, this is good. Like, you know, I think you know, things are gonna work out well here. So I am looking for that.

Laurie Watson 06:46
See you waiting for that?

George Faller 06:48
pain? Yeah, I guess that’s a good way saying I’m waiting for something to be like, Oh, here we go. This is good. That that’s that’s so easy. when everything goes the way it’s supposed to.

Laurie Watson 06:58
That’s kind of the starting gun so to speak. Yeah. Uh huh. Yeah. Just for the record some friends of mine. We listened to the episode where you talked about the male pursuer, Joe, and we all decided we would take shots every time he said the word penis.

George Faller 07:17
What a lot of shots are that they’re

Laurie Watson 07:19
all. Okay, so you’re okay, so your body, you’re not really paying attention to it your genitals, you’re hoping for a signal? And that would tell you yes, you want sex?

George Faller 07:31
I would say my body’s probably like a two or three. And my genitals is probably like, seven or eight.

Laurie Watson 07:39
In terms of, okay, so if you’re turned on seven or eight, that’s good, but your mind pretty low.

George Faller 07:45
We’re probably not having sex if I’m not turned on.

Laurie Watson 07:49
Okay, so if you don’t get turned on, and is there anything that like, reliably turns you on?

George Faller 07:56
Yeah, I mean, I like when my wife is turned on. Like when she’s just into it.

Laurie Watson 08:04
So if she asked about it, or seduces you or comes on to you, that’s what

George Faller 08:11
Yeah, I like what she’s playful sometimes says intensity that, you know, feels like too much like, I know, she wants her and she’s kind of wants me to be initiating and is kind of, again, all this pressure. But when it’s like just natural, like read, join each other laugh and all of a sudden, I reach over, she responds like that kind of feels. That’s good. That’s good for you.

Laurie Watson 08:35
Calm, playful, kind of low, gentle energy that moves into sacks. You feel your body turned on, your genitals turn on and then then you know, it’s time in any sense of where you’re at spiritually at that point.

George Faller 08:51
Yeah, I don’t. Really, that doesn’t play much factor here. Okay. I don’t think much about that. And that’s a

Laurie Watson 08:59
one zero.

George Faller 09:00
Yeah, one. Okay.

Laurie Watson 09:03
Okay, and now, let’s go to the moment, I

George Faller 09:06
believe in God, but I think good Oh, God is outside the bedroom.

Laurie Watson 09:11
Okay. So for you. You’re not necessarily thinking about your spiritual life, and your intimate life all together. Right. Okay, tell me once you’re in the bedroom. What happens to your mind then?

George Faller 09:28
I think I think that’s pretty high score. I, I wanna I think about maybe different position or kind of, maybe I’m gonna say something or maybe our wife’s gonna say something. So, like, I think that’s important to me. I might think about a fantasy is something I think that’s important.

Laurie Watson 09:57
So you, you think it’s important to engage Your mind in sort of a sexual fantasy and it could include things like, Are we going to be in different positions? Or maybe my wife says something that kind of tips the scale in terms of draws my, my mind’s attention to something sexual.

George Faller 10:16
Maybe we’re role play maybe where I guess my brain is looking for some something new, something exciting something. You know, she wears something or is this just something? I kind of like that?

Laurie Watson 10:31
Something that is kind of captivating? Yeah. Okay. And what’s your heart doing once you’re in bed? In the moment? What do you feel in your heart?

George Faller 10:42
I know.

Laurie Watson 10:44
Are you open? Are you fearful?

George Faller 10:47
I bet I think it’s not so important to me. I know my wife likes to kiss it. And she says it. Okay. I hope you’re I mean, for me, it’s more like, you know, I enjoy the connection and know, I enjoy kissing. But it’s that I don’t think it’s as important to me.

Laurie Watson 11:02
Mm hmm. So maybe a scale on that number for that?

George Faller 11:09
I’d say I don’t know, maybe like a five. I’m not cold. I mean, I I love my wife. But I just don’t really, I don’t think it matters as much to me. Okay,

Laurie Watson 11:19
so the heart connection, the romance, that kind of thing, not as important to you.

George Faller 11:24
I don’t care if there’s candles of music. I know all that stuff’s important to my wife. But you know, I don’t think it’s as important to me.

Laurie Watson 11:31
So what about the fearful part of your heart? Do you have any fearful aspects of entering, once you’re in the bedroom entering this experience?

George Faller 11:41
You know, I try to not, but I, I do have a lot of pressure, I’m afraid that I won’t maybe maintain my erection, maybe I might come too fast. Or maybe, you know, I won’t come at all or maybe my wife won’t have an orgasm. So there are a lot of things that I’m worried about while I’m doing this, so I try to worry then I try to think about something else. And then I worry again, and I think it’s so I guess I’m like all over the place.

Laurie Watson 12:08
But you’re kind of toggling between worry. And trying to focus on something that would be compelling and exciting. Yeah, you’re going back and forth there. And

George Faller 12:18
I remember like, say the alphabet, so I would get distracted. And I wouldn’t orgasm too quickly, but that I was worried about losing my erection so that I would think about some fantasy. I mean, I feel like I’m all over the place sometimes. Mm hmm.

Laurie Watson 12:33
You’re really concerned about how you’re performing? And I can understand that, that makes it hard for you to really feel something. Right. And, and as you are you aroused at this point. Yeah, I mean, I’m back and forth. And

George Faller 12:50
I feel like I am in my head, I don’t really get the rest of my body. I don’t really notice it. So I get that a low score,

low score on

George Faller 12:58
body and my genitals. I’m definitely super focused on that. Okay, I’m totally paying attention to kind of how how hard I am how things will work and things start to change. I’m really super focused on that.

Laurie Watson 13:14
Let’s, let’s get a break, and come back and talk. Uber lube is our sponsor. And this is a lubricant that I have recommended for many years, you know, it’s got long lasting performance, it doesn’t get sticky, which let me tell you, as a woman that’s important, no sticky feeling yuck. And it doesn’t have any taste. It’s scent free. And it is made out of like silicon and also vitamin E. So it leaves you feeling soft, which is good. I love the packaging. But I’ve said that before. And I really do like that. It’s also it doesn’t cause any allergies. So many of the lubricants out there do cause allergic reactions, and this one doesn’t. So that’s great. It’s also recommended by other doctors, thousands of doctors around the world.

George Faller 14:00
And it’s so necessary to change the statement like there’s something wrong if you need it. I mean, this is what helps us become more intentional and more playful and have more fun. How do we see this says an ally in sexual adventures,

Laurie Watson 14:14
it kind of is insurance that it will feel good,

George Faller 14:17
but even insurance, it’s like, if everything’s working great, why not have a little extra a little extra fun there

Laurie Watson 14:23
little extra fun with Uber lube, and you can find it on a with the coupon for play for 10% discount.

George Faller 14:31
So Laurie, you know, at times I can be a bit old school. Yes, growing up with a bunch of men who didn’t do any kind of trimming or cleaning. They just kind of just let it roll. No, I think I’ve tried to get caught up with the Modern Times said hey, when you notice all what women have to do to go through the grooming plane and make them slacks racks and all this stuff that seems quite painful. I figured the least I can do is I’ll give a little tremens, freshen up the bed until you I used you know what I was using to shave my son’s head, you know, it didn’t feel so good out here. So

Laurie Watson 15:06
you totally need manscaped Electric trimmer because it is so safe. And you need this. It’s like the improved lawnmowers what they call it? 3.0 3.0. Yeah.

George Faller 15:19
When you go like close to the family jewels, you better be safe and take your time.

Laurie Watson 15:25
Absolutely. And you can use this in the shower. It’s like waterproof. There’s like an LED light that you can see. And they have this motor, I guess it goes for 90 minutes. I mean, I don’t know anybody who’s gonna need it for 90 minutes, but

George Faller 15:37
definitely sold manscape here, right? Calm,

Laurie Watson 15:41
okay, so our listeners, you know, they can get this for 20% off and free shipping if they go to manscape calm and use the code foreplay. So if you want to come up to the modern era, gentlemen, I think it’s a very good idea.

George Faller 15:58
Come on, and join me.

Laurie Watson 16:03
George, I’m interested in you as low Joe, and telling us what you experienced with your wife in bed. And what we’re talking about is the sexual withdraw or male. And you have just brought us to the bedroom. You’re saying, okay, I really kind of toggling between focus on my erection and also trying to keep my mind from worrying about my performance. also trying to stay engaged and your heart. It’s kind of like a four. You said four, five, but lots of worry. And not so aware of your body. very aware of your genitals. What about an orgasm? What do you feel then?

George Faller 16:43
I mean, I feels great. I feel like what I have an orgasm, it’s like, it’s easy. It’s the way it’s supposed to be. Mm hmm. I always kind of want to have that orgasm. Like, why don’t I do more of this? It just feels like I do feel really connected. I feel like this is so good for us. You know, I really love my wife.

Laurie Watson 17:06
So your heart starts to get a lot more full at that point. And yeah, I mean, an orgasm. Yeah.

George Faller 17:12
And any spirit is some relief to like, like, you did look, yeah, the pressure goes away. And it’s just like, now I can really just kind of relax.

Laurie Watson 17:21
You don’t have to worry about your performance anymore. You’re more relaxed, and she’s happy. It’s good. And you feel a lot a lot for her at that point. Yeah. Any spiritual sense at that point of spiritual connection? Or?

George Faller 17:36
I mean, I never really get asked that question. And I mean, I guess there is something about an orgasm that feels special, like I don’t know where like, Time stands still. So there’s something about that, but I I’d have to get that more thought. Okay.

Laurie Watson 17:52
Okay. Let’s talk about after sex. What happens for you? What, what happens to your whole body at that point, after sex? Are you more aware, kind of up until this point, you’ve told us you’re not aware of your body in general,

George Faller 18:07
I think when I relax, more, much more aware of my body, maybe that score goes up. It’s like, I wanna I want to cuddle. I wanna, I wanna know, I might stroke my wife’s hair. I kind of like when she scratches my back. Like there is a kind of just like, relax is the word I keep going to. And there’s,

Laurie Watson 18:31
there’s more of a sense of enjoyment of your whole body.

George Faller 18:36
Yeah, your skin might get off. I might grab some food and eat in bed or I might be sleepy. I just feel satisfied. I just feel really content.

Laurie Watson 18:47
And what about your mind at that point, are you I you’ve kind of said the worry is over. So does that mean? You’re not necessarily directed toward eroticism at that point, but you’re calmer?

George Faller 18:59
Yeah, I think my mind really settles down. I’m not really thinking about much. I’m just feeling peaceful and maybe that’s why I go to sleep a lot.

Laurie Watson 19:12
You feel so peaceful.

George Faller 19:14
That Yeah, I sleep so good. You sleep. I get my best sleep when after we have sex.

Laurie Watson 19:21
And what about your heart?

George Faller 19:23
I think it’s probably where I feel the most connected. I feel really a lot of gratitude. And I really love my wife. I just I think that’s my scores really high here now, huh? It’s like I we had sex we reminded each other why we’re still with each other and we like it reminds you all that we still have good in this relationship. And I just feel like we’re like clean slate. We’re back on the same page.

Clean Slate.

Laurie Watson 19:57
Clean Slate. You don’t there’s no more pressing.

George Faller 20:00
No more pressure no more. It’s all good.

Laurie Watson 20:04
It’s all good. Nice. And does that? Does it make it easier for you to have sex again at this point? Or do you just Are you satisfied and done for a while?

George Faller 20:18
Yeah, I don’t I always wonder why. I don’t know how it seems to kind of get these prolonged periods where we don’t have sex, because I always think, Oh, this is great. We got to have this again. And, and then before you know it, we just don’t have it. And then before, you know, I’m feeling the pressure again, and like 10, how do we get back here? It’s another month just like, boom, we just get so busy with ally kids work. And now it’s just somehow we find ourselves back here.

Laurie Watson 20:47
And what did she say about the month?

George Faller 20:50
Well, she’s not shy. And let me know that, you know, I’m doing it again. I’m kind of retreating. I’m not engaging. What’s wrong with me? She leaves hints and books and wants to talk. And I’m like, Ah, here we go again,

Laurie Watson 21:05
huh? That’s the pressure.

George Faller 21:09
Yeah. And it’s so confusing. Because like, what we have sex and everything works. It’s I love it. It’s so great. But then like, we just get back to this same spot where it’s like, all this pressure.

Laurie Watson 21:20
Afterwards, though, you get good feedback from her that she’s satisfied and happy with what happened?

George Faller 21:26
Yeah, no, I think she like me, she’s like, I don’t get why we don’t do this bar. Hmm. We both feel so good. afterwards.

It’s good.

George Faller 21:38
So can you tell me why we don’t?

Laurie Watson 21:41
Well, I definitely hear the anxious piece. There’s part that is somehow or another doesn’t really make it happen is waiting for it to happen, even though it feels really good. And you feel so much love for your wife afterwards. And it feels good physically, and emotionally. What I’m hearing is afterwards, there’s kind of a law you don’t your mind doesn’t kind of prompt you toward the erotic. You don’t see people that are attractive or read something that sexy or that and that doesn’t prompt you towards sex.

George Faller 22:18
No, I see somebody attractive or watching a movie, I certainly think about it. But no, it just seems to be other things get

Laurie Watson 22:26
in the way. Hang on, though. There’s kind of like this. This, it doesn’t naturally flow into let’s have sex.

George Faller 22:34
Yeah, I guess the anticipation somehow. You know, I hear my friends always kind of wanting it like looking forward to it where like, I’m anticipating what could go wrong, I guess.

Laurie Watson 22:50
That worried mine really kind of stops you from easing into it. It could mess up.

George Faller 22:59
Right? So how do I change those numbers? I guess that’s what I’ll try to figure out here.

Laurie Watson 23:08
Now, one of the things I heard was this kind of disconnect from your whole body. You know, and you didn’t even know if you came in and kissed your wife or hug your wife. Hello? Like you didn’t know, you weren’t even aware of that. That was really interesting to me. You know, is there a way that you could, I would suggest making that a ritual, you know that you can act with touch all the time, and so that it does become familiar. But what about like it at night? in general? Would you cuddle with your wife? Would you allow her to scratch your back? So

George Faller 23:41
let’s pause Joe and let’s have a conversation here. Because again, I like the practical, let’s identify. I mean, Joe is in trouble here for good reasons. This is the recipe for not having great sex.

Laurie Watson 23:54
Joe is in trouble. What’s the show

George Faller 23:56
is Trump a lot of men have been trained to express themselves sexually this way. Right, that if I need fantasy, and pornography and masturbation, that’s how I can control it. And it’s this like, individual act, then sex itself becomes more pressurized because I could fail and my partner might be disappointed, you know, it’s easier to just do it solo.

Laurie Watson 24:25
Right. So it’s disconnected from the partnership. And I think that’s, you know, one thing you’re absolutely right in identifying that. Probably Joe is having sexual release, right, he’s masturbating. I mean, if he’s, you know, has adequate testosterone and he’s probably taking care of this. It’s the The problem is in the connection to his partner. You know, it just doesn’t flow that way.

George Faller 24:51
And I you’re right on and trying to get me to increase my full body’s score. I got to learn how to relax I got to learn how to let my body be and let it go and to kind of bring all my senses alive, right, my smell, touch, taste and so many things that I’m not even bringing in my hot wrote the romantic open part of my heart to think about how lucky I am how much I appreciate my wife, you know, the importance of that hug or that kiss or that cuddle and like those two major parts, the body, the heart are left out. And now, because the erotic mind is hide at high, and the focus on my genitals is high, the that fear response is really messing with that. Right, that fear is blocked, and putting the brakes on the full expression of just my, you know, physical performance side of sex, which is a man is how Joe has been taught to be.

Laurie Watson 25:53
I think to that, for some men, it’s sex being under their own power and their own control, they don’t have to depend on anybody. And that’s scary to depend to ask, to need. And also to merge, I mean, because sex is, can be so transcendent. And that’s wonderful, when we have a sense of self, and we know, on the other side, we’re going to come into ourselves, and we’re going to feel better about our partner, and we’re going to feel more alive. But if you go into a situation where it’s really out of control that transcendence feels scary. And, you know, we’re so merged and, and what happens, I mean, I think intellectually, we all know what happens with orgasm. But I think in a more primitive place inside losing yourself and losing control, losing control in front of your partner, I mean, all of that can be fearful, you know, for Joe.

George Faller 26:51
Yeah. And that’s a sign of, I mean, a lot of men emotionally withdraw, because taking space is what makes them feel safer. There’s more controlling space, there’s there’s, they can understand things, they can break things down. And usually, though, sexually is the one area where they can still pursue and find themselves in more vulnerable space. But for sexual with drawers, who also also emotional with drawers, you know, space has become so predictable and needed, that really is interfere with your ability to connect and let themselves go. So I love that you’re trying to encourage low Joe to be more in his body, be more in his heart, and even planting the seeds of that spiritual to say, Hey, listen, you know, this is about connecting. How do you think about that connection? If that’s something that’s important, or something you believe in?

Laurie Watson 27:46
One of the things I see and I guess we’re we’re out of time, I’m gonna just say this last thing with people who are both emotional and sexual with jars is that they often come from childhoods where touch was not regular they, they longed for affection as children, and they made up their mind, it’s not coming. So in adult relationships, it’s really hard to depend on a partner for that. So thanks for listening to low Joe and the male sexual with jar

George Faller 28:15
at low Joe, you can keep it hot. This is not a mystery, there are concrete things that you can do to kind of get more out of your sex life. And you deserve that. Absolutely. So for all you therapists out there listening to our show, I really want you to check out success on new training website that we believe is taking online therapists training to the next level, it’s so focused on moment by moment, practical moves, less theory, to really get people to have immediate success, right, we’re trying to measure targets of change. So we can see if we’re on target or we need to adjust. And the feedback we’re getting is really excited. We’re incorporating that feedback to continually adjust it to change the schedule and come join us si ve team.

Laurie Watson 29:08
Also, I’ll just put a plug in for it as well, because I am one of the learners. And they just released module three, which is so nuanced and so smart. I was listening to it thinking, this kind of instruction just is not out there, how to do the micro moves that change people’s hearts toward each other. It’s so good. So it’s reasonably priced. I just encourage you to go over to success and sign up. It’s great training.

George Faller 29:40
Laurie, I want to give a big shout out to our patrons whose support is really helping. And as we’re starting to notice, with success comes more expenses and it would really be great for our listeners to have new patrons Come and join us to be part of this mission talking about sex, the importance of that To change our culture to help us not have to figure this stuff out and feel a shame that along with all this.

Laurie Watson 30:06
That’s right. Thanks so much. I mean, it feels good that people are believing in this mission, wanting to help other couples and wanting to help make sex something that is beautiful and easy to talk about and reduce the shame that people feel about it. So your financial support has been helpful and it would be wonderful to have you behind us

Announcer 30:27
calling your questions to the foreplay question, voicemail, dial 833 my four play that’s a three three, the number four play, and we’ll use the questions for our mailbag episodes. All content is for entertainment purposes only and should not be considered as a substitute for therapy by a licensed clinician or as medical advice from a doctor. This podcast is copyrighted by fourplay Media