You are currently viewing Episode 372: Plight Of Performance Based Sex

Episode 372: Plight Of Performance Based Sex

Performance based sex is problematic for couples. A focus on performance can create anxiety. Sex is being thought about in the head (how long will my erection last? Are they liking this? My partner doesn’t feel aroused, does that mean I don’t turn them on?) rather than experienced in the body. Partners that focus on performance during sex are motivated by approval rather than intimacy and pleasure. Of course the sounds or faces our lovers make during the act are approving, inviting and exciting but if we focus solely on those reactions our nervous systems can go into a tailspin if there isn’t a match. So, how do we take sex from performance focused to a more embodied experience? This episode addresses just that! Listen to George and Laurie discuss how to name the pressure, talk about it safely and help one another’s bodies relax to get fully online for sex or come up with a different solution if sex isn’t going to happen. Great lovers are relaxed and we have better results when we work on this together rather than in isolation.

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Show Notes

The Pressure to Perform 

 -Discussing how many people have been trained to perform and be evaluated, which can negatively affect their sexual experiences
– The consequences of solely focusing on their partner’s satisfaction and neglecting their own body
– The importance of recognizing the pressure to perform as a signal to make a change and be present and in tune with oneself
– How both the person feeling the pressure and their partner will experience negative consequences if the pressure is not addressed

Relationship Dynamics and Intimacy                                       

 – Exploring the complicated motives that contribute to relationship dynamics
– Understanding the emotions of an anxious person feeling inadequate when their partner rejects sexual advances
– Recognizing how an anxious person might become angry and push for sex to prove their connection
– Highlighting how insecure love-making lacks intimacy and pleasure, emphasizing the importance of a secure sexual connection
– Discussing how approval-seeking can escalate into manipulation and coercion in relationships           

 Being Present in the Body

-Focusing on the importance of being present in one’s body during sex
– Suggesting exercises, such as kegel exercises for women, to improve the connection between the brain and genitals
– Contrasting the difference in sexual excitement between men and women, explaining the role of erections for men and lubrication for women
– Sharing a story of a couple’s struggle with achieving orgasm and how open communication and understanding helped them progress
– Highlighting the potential unintended pressure partners can add by trying to speed things up, emphasizing the need for communication and working together

Understanding and Supporting Each Other

– Exploring the pressure men feel about erections from a woman’s perspective
– Suggesting playful ways for women to acknowledge their partner’s erection and offer alternative sexual activities if the timing isn’t right
– Highlighting the importance of trust and communication in the relationship for both partners to feel secure and comfortable

 Performance Sex and Relationship Dynamics

– Explaining the concept of performance sex, which occurs when we have sex to please our partner or prove our worthiness
– Discussing how performance sex often leads to being caught up in our heads and not being fully present in our bodies
– Exploring how anxiety during performance sex can cause issues with pleasure and satisfaction
– Discussing the potential strain on the relationship if expectations and reactions during performance sex are not met

Understanding Pressure in a Relationship

– Exploring the motives behind sex, including intimacy, pleasure, coping, and approval, and how performance sex often involves a mix of these motives
– Emphasizing the importance of acknowledging pressure in a relationship and building trust to express struggles and pressure to a partner
– Using an analogy of a man trying to stimulate his dry and unaroused wife to highlight the pressure of trying to please a partner
– Describing how a partner’s frantic touch and demanding demeanor can make one feel disconnected and less connected to their partner
– Acknowledging the different motivations for performance pressure and encouraging listeners to connect with their own feelings
– Highlighting the importance of understanding one’s emotions and finding healthier ways to address fears and anxieties


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George Faller [00:00:31]:

The pressure to be a great lover laurie performance sex. What do you think?

Laurie Watson [00:00:40]:

I think we should talk about it.

George Faller [00:00:42]:

All right. I can feel a heaviness already as we’re going to start talking about it.

Laurie Watson [00:00:49]:

Welcome to foreplay sex therapy. I’m Dr. Laurie Watson, your sex therapist.

George Faller [00:00:54]:

And I’m George Faller, a couple’s therapist.

Laurie Watson [00:00:56]:

We are here to talk about sex.

George Faller [00:00:58]:

Our mission is to help couples talk about sex in ways that incorporate their body, their mind and their hearts.

Laurie Watson [00:01:06]:

And we have a little bit of fun doing it.

George Faller [00:01:08]:

Right, g. Listen and let’s change some relationships.

Laurie Watson [00:01:12]:

Hey, don’t forget to check out with the coupon foreplay. It really helps us to support the podcast and keep delivering free content. Thanks so much. Performance Sex one of the things in attachment theory is there’s essentially four motives for the reason we have sex. We have sex because it feels good.

George Faller [00:01:31]:


Laurie Watson [00:01:32]:

We have sex because it creates intimacy between us. We feel loved, we love, make love to our partner. Right? Sometimes we have sex because we just got to get to sleep or we just got to get off. And that’s okay.

George Faller [00:01:46]:

Most of the time reduces stress, right? It just kind of clicky.

Laurie Watson [00:01:51]:

Exactly. And sometimes we have sex for an anxious motive, which is kind of to maybe please our partner. Not a bad thing completely. But sometimes that performance, especially if we’re driven and we’re anxious in the sexual cycle. So in the anxious cycle, sometimes maybe we have sex because our partner is bugging us and we just want them to be happy and stop bugging us. And so we perform. Or we’re trying to prove something. We’re trying to prove that we’re good enough and that our partner should love us, therefore, and validate us. The problem with performance sex is we are caught up in our heads. We are usually not in the pleasure motive where we feel something and a lot of things go wrong. And it goes wrong in two ways, George. It goes wrong in our body because our anxiety says, I got to do something, I got to squirt, I got to have a great orgasm, I got to please my partner in some way. And now I’m in my head thinking about this performance just like it sounds. I’m not present, I’m not real there in my body. And then the other thing that goes wrong is between us, relationally, with our partner. It’s like if I’m performing for you and maybe you don’t react the way I think you should. I have this great big erection, and I’m pretending to be a guy. Now. James will, like, know this great big erection, and I’m hot, and you’re just kind of, like, laying there and not really excited about this thing. And I’m trying to show you how good of a lover I am. I’ve been seductive all this, and I’m not getting that response. It’s like it can go ski WAB between us. I don’t get the approval, the validation that I’m looking for in this approval motive. So performance sex comes from the motive for approval. Intimacy, pleasure, coping, and approval. Those are our four motives reasons we have sex, right? And it’s a mixed motive oftentimes.

George Faller [00:04:04]:

So I like to start off connecting with a good intent. A lot of us have been trained in most areas of our lives to perform, to kind of be evaluated on how we perform. So it’s not surprising that that gets pulled into the bedroom. There’s something beautiful about focusing on your partner’s satisfaction, that you want to do a good job, you want to make your partner happy. I mean, these are really good things, right? And as Laurie is saying, it sets us up for some very predictable costs of doing right. So if I’m focusing on my partner’s satisfaction, but I’m not even in touch with my own body, it’s going to set my body up over time for this to be harder and harder to perform. And before you know it, I’m going to start failing because things aren’t going to work so well because I’m not present, I’m not in my body. So how can we recognize this pressure to perform? Again, as a signal from our body that’s saying we need to do something different, we need to get more into our know. As Laurie’s saying, the cost of this know for the person who’s got the pressure, but also for the partner who’s.

Laurie Watson [00:05:16]:

Also got the pressure exactly.

George Faller [00:05:18]:

Who’s got to respond to the performance. Here we are, this great workout that a lot of performers have, and it’s like you see them in a mirror, they try to get reps in. It’s like a lot of us get trained watching pornography, like, what this is supposed to look like. And it’s more of a workout than the act of making love, which, again, sometimes can be cool. But when that becomes, like, your ideal vision of what sex is supposed to look like, so much pressure, it’s a set up for failure.

Laurie Watson [00:05:48]:

It’s a set up. I had this couple that I was seeing, and he was often coming from the anxious motive. To him, sex was the way he proved something, and if he could get her to respond, then he knew he was okay. It really wasn’t that he was going to give her pleasure. It was for his own reassurance that he was loved, that they were going to be okay. And he was connected. And so what would happen?

George Faller [00:06:18]:

Want to make sure I’m getting that, because, again, I think a lot of people this will resonate. It’s like, if I can give you an orgasm or I can perform in a way that no one else can, it makes me feel special, like I am this unique person that brought you to a place no one else can. I am amazing. So, again, there is a payoff for the person who’s performing. And a lot of times it’s good just to name that. Okay, keep going.

Laurie Watson [00:06:42]:

Yeah. Again, I like that you’re talking about the flip side, that there’s something good here. And again, these are so complicated in terms of our motives. It’s not easy peasy to pick them apart. And there’s not a good or a bad thing. There are patterns, though, that over time dysregulate people and cause them to split apart. So one of the things was, as the anxious person, when his wife would not want to or she was too tired, it was like there was something wrong with him. He wasn’t attractive enough, he wasn’t good enough in bed. The message came through, rather than sort of that standing aside the cycle and seeing that, okay, she may be really tired or she’s got to get up early in the morning or whatever it is that it’s not about. Him that it’s really about where she’s at sexually. Then what would happen is he would get angry and he would push further and further. Even in the same night, he would nag and all of this kind of wake her up, but can’t we still do it? Now? You’re relaxed. And it was not to give her pleasure. It wasn’t even to get pleasure. It was to prove something on the inside, to get this validation of I am connected. It was frantic and in secure love making, it really comes from intimacy and pleasure. And when we’re secure sexually, we can take a note from our partner and know that tomorrow is a better day, friday is a better night, whatever. And overall, things flow that we don’t take it as invalidation of who we are or what’s happening in the relationship. I mean, when we come from the approval motive and it’s dysregulated, this can be highly escalated because the person who is feeling the rejection, I did this, I initiated this. I took a risk, and I wanted to get something from you. They can kind of go ballistic over it. And this is what I would see, is that one of the strategies in his beginning place, he needed approval, but after a while, he would become manipulative and almost coercive. Like, he would nag her and put her down and criticize her and withdraw from the relationship to pout and punish her. I mean, it was really a toxic cycle.

George Faller [00:09:14]:

Yeah. So I appreciate you’re trying to name two different motivations for the performance pressure. Sometimes it could be just I want to please you and I have all this pressure and I’m all this focus on how I’m going to do that. Or sometimes it could be coming from a place of your own anxiety that needs reassurance and is looking for the performance to get the reassurance that you need. So again, we could pursue withdrawal kind of dynamics. It could be the fear underneath the anxiety could be that if I don’t perform, I’m going to fail you. Or it could be if I don’t perform, I’m going to get rejected. So there’s no right or wrong. We’re just giving you all listeners to just try to connect to what is it that you might feel. Because the beauty in the simplicity of working with emotions is every emotion has given us information. It makes a lot of sense, your specific type of pressure to perform. And the more you listen to it, the more you give yourself a body marker, the more you could start coming up with a way of finding healthier ways of getting those fears, those anxieties addressed, than the road you’re going down.

Laurie Watson [00:10:25]:

Yeah. And I think, again, you’re talking about the two different issues in your body and in your emotions. That performance motive, how it can mess with either you your own head or relationally, it can mess with the relationship. I mean, both things, right? The male who is in performance and he says, I got to have an erection that lasts for X number of hours or minutes or whatever I’ve seen on porn.

George Faller [00:10:55]:

You’re in trouble. As soon as your brain starts thinking about how long your erection is going to last, you are in trouble.

Laurie Watson [00:11:00]:

You are in trouble, right? Because we know that anxiety basically is a pressure against an erection. An erection is something that happens that’s responsive to touch, to joy, to excitement. It’s very natural. And as soon as you start worrying about it or becoming anxious about it or have something to prove with that erection, you’re going to lose your erection or something’s going to happen. Same with premature ejaculation.

George Faller [00:11:28]:

I mean, I felt this in my own relationship that as I’ve done this podcast and I’ve learned more about sex, I mean, as a guy, I was so revved up during sex that there was a ton of pressure. And just learning that great lovers are relaxed, that changed my brain. I was like, I’m not really relaxed during sex. So I’ve tried to get more relaxed. And it’s just amazing what that does to kind of let your body go, to be more in your body, to kind of be more relaxed, to not.

Laurie Watson [00:12:00]:

Have to feel your heels on the.

George Faller [00:12:02]:

Bed, think, yeah, that’s been my little tip for myself. It’s like oh, there’s heels. I could feel them again. It’s like that movement just relaxes my body. And again. But you can’t relax your body if you first don’t pay attention to the pressure that you’re feeling to recognize. I am in a place of focusing on my performance, and if you’re focusing on your performance, you’re getting further away from the present moment.

Laurie Watson [00:12:27]:

Yeah. And I think men do have so much more pressure in terms of being active in bed. They’re the ones who often do initiate and create a lot of energy in the moment, so they’re dependent on their body working in order to reach intercourse. And as a woman, you can have a good sexual experience without even high desire in the moment. You can feel close and connected, and there’s not quite as much pressure on your body to do something. Although I think there’s a lot more pressure on women to look a certain way in bed and increasing pressure certainly on men too, for that reason.

George Faller [00:13:09]:

And that pressure that a lot of women, too, have to respond even if they’re not in a mood. Right?

Laurie Watson [00:13:16]:

Right. That’s the approval motive.

George Faller [00:13:18]:


Laurie Watson [00:13:19]:

They are trying to respond when they’re not in the mood, which doesn’t do a whole lot for them to feel their body. Like, talk about a downer. If you’re saying, okay, I got to really show up here, I got to do something, and I don’t really feel anything, what are the odds that you’re ever going to feel anything that night? Not so good.

George Faller [00:13:39]:

Let’s come back with this double pressure example.

Laurie Watson [00:13:46]:

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George Faller [00:16:18]:


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George Faller [00:17:43]:

All right, so here we are. We have the couple. The male wants to please and perform and show his partner how special she is. So he’s going into the encounter with all this pressure. The woman’s not in a mood, but she wants to respond to her partner. So she’s got the pressure to respond even though she’s not in a mood. We have two partners coming into the bedroom with a ton of pressure, and we know pressure is going to get in a way of great sex.

Laurie Watson [00:18:12]:


George Faller [00:18:12]:

How do we help this couple? Lori.

Laurie Watson [00:18:14]:

Yeah, so she’s feeling know, her brain says, I want to make him happy. But literally her body isn’t caught fire yet, and he’s feeling like, okay, I got to keep this erection that I have, and my wife doesn’t have anything. What a disaster.

George Faller [00:18:37]:

It’s a disaster.

Laurie Watson [00:18:38]:


George Faller [00:18:38]:

No wonder why there’s so many kind of sexual misses happening there. But he’s not focusing on the present moment and his love and his kind of being with his partner.

Laurie Watson [00:18:49]:

Not best sex. He’s thinking about body.

George Faller [00:18:53]:

Right. He’s left himself, and she’s left herself, too, because she’s focusing on, like, I want to make him happy. Like, neither person are in their bodies.

Laurie Watson [00:19:02]:

Neither person is in their bodies. Right, exactly. And so you can’t have best sex unless you’re in your body. And I think best sex makes it is kind of the solution here. It’s more expansive. It’s like, we’re doing this. It’s a win that we got naked together, and let’s feel each other’s skin for a little bit. Hold each other. Like you said, become aware of your own body. I think for women, one of my quick tricks is always, like, do a kegel squeeze because you’re suddenly aware of your vulva, like your vagina. You’re like, oh, there’s something down there. And it doesn’t do working. It doesn’t do anything to increase excitement. It really doesn’t, gentlemen, but it does for you as a woman, create a little bit of awareness of your genitals. When I think this is one of the problems with women is our brains and our genitals are not very well connected. They’re not very well wired together, which is why a woman could be lubricated and not feel excited. Whereas a man, I think if you have an erection correct me if I’m wrong, George, but you feel sexual excitement, right? A man feels sexual excitement if he has an erection.

George Faller [00:20:13]:

Yeah. They go hand in hand. It’s pretty quick.

Laurie Watson [00:20:16]:

Yeah. How nice. Again, I envy that.

George Faller [00:20:20]:

Well, there’s some benefits to both, but getting back to the pressure okay. And that’s the opportunity in just naming it in your body. Like, if you can feel pressure, if you can say, I’m feeling pressure right now, that pressure is telling you to let go, to do something, dude, to discharge that pressure if you don’t notice it. And that’s the sad thing. So many couples we work with, they’re in pressure the whole time, and they’ve never named it. They’ve never kind of talked about it. So they just keep going into the encounter. Their body is bracing for it. They’re dealing with it constantly, but they’ve never talked about it. And if you could just say it out loud, I have pressure right now. Good. We can deal with it. We can come up with a plan to help you with that.

Laurie Watson [00:21:05]:

Yeah. I think, like, as a woman, knowing that my partner feels pressure about erections, and you have helped grind this into me, my brain george, I have talked to patients in a new way since working with you, so I really feel it in a new way. I think I always have come at it as a know, like, okay, he’s got an erection, and he loses erection. That’s no big deal. We can get it know, to me, I didn’t get the problem with that, because for me, it was always like, no big deal. I didn’t expect it to last forever, and we can always get it back. But I think if a woman, she might say, hey, baby, you got a monster going on there. But I am just nowhere. Can we hop in the bath and I swear to you, I’ll go down on you when we’re out or something to help you get that guy back or something that sort of teasingly, acknowledging that he’s got a great erection. You’re proud of that? He’s proud of that. He ought to be proud of that. But it’s okay. You know, that your timing right now because of your body not sort of feeling pressure and not really ready. You need something else, but you don’t want to kill that erection. And there are times there are moments that you go, you know what? I’m nowhere, but let’s get the Uber loop. Let’s make use of that baby and go for it. That’s fine. And then if he doesn’t expect her to climax or to really get something physiologically out of it, but she’s gifting him taking advantage of that great erection and trusting her. Right. This is insecure relationship. We trust each other. Sometimes it’s your turn. Sometimes it’s my turn. It’s okay. First of all, I don’t feel any pressure. If my partner says, yeah, get the Uber, I got to make use of this baby. It’s like, fine, I’m mixing up baby and monster. I meant monster. No diss on baby. He doesn’t have a baby. He has a monster.

George Faller [00:23:14]:

Monster baby.

Laurie Watson [00:23:15]:

How about that?

George Faller [00:23:17]:

We’re mixed worlds.

Laurie Watson [00:23:18]:

Yeah. First, acknowledging him, acknowledging that he might feel pressure over losing the erection if we slow down. But this is what I need. So I either make a solution, or I tell him I feel pressure and my body is just not there. But I want to make you happy, and can we do it this way? I’ll pull out the vibrator afterwards or, you know, intercourse makes me turn on.

George Faller [00:23:46]:

A little bit and notice, as Lori is again naming the pressure. Right. They’re dealing with it together instead of dealing with it in isolation. The beautiful thing about naming your pressure and where you feel it in your body is you’re back to your body. You’re in the present moment. That is the live feeling. If I feel a pressure in my neck and my shoulders, and I’m like, I’m feeling this pressure because I just want to perform. I don’t want to screw things up, and it’s like, all right. And if I know I keep going down this road, I’m more likely to screw things up, how can I deal with letting that pressure go? Maybe I do need my wife to just rub my neck and tell me my muscles in my neck are pretty big. Whatever it is to have fun with it. But it’s acknowledging the pressure to get it back into your body. Being in your body is bringing you back towards relaxation, being present and being with your partner. Those are the things great lovers can do.

Laurie Watson [00:24:38]:

And I think what you’re saying is acknowledging the pressure out loud is intimate. Like, I have to have a tremendous amount of trust in my partner to tell him, hey, I’m struggling here and I’m feeling a lot of pressure. I want to catch up to you. I can imagine as a man too, if you have a raging erection and you reach down to try to stimulate your wife and she’s dry, she’s limp, she’s clearly not aroused, like, now how do I get her going? There’s pressure. And suddenly maybe his movements become faster, more forceful, because he’s like, well, if I can just get her going and I know that stimulation is going to work, and then she’s like, oh, I am so not ready for this. And your frantic touch makes me feel further and further away from it. I’m less connected to you. This is not good. You’re wanting something from me. You’re demanding something from me in my body. I can feel that in your touch. And so now suddenly, I feel desperate to perform. It’s like, oh, what am I going to do with that touch? It’s like I could fake it. Maybe I could start moving or something. Or more than likely, I could just turn off further. It’s like his need for me to respond that need for me to respond to his approval motive. Right? It’s a turn off, I got to say. It’s just such a turn off. This is about you. This isn’t about us.

George Faller [00:26:20]:

I had a couple describe the wife. The kids were home, husband’s ready to go, got the erection, the door is locked. And she’s just like she can’t get there. She’s trying closing her eyes, and she’s doing everything to get her body going and she has to vibrate around and she’s just too far behind. Right. But being able to acknowledge that it was cool progress for this couple when she said, hey, babe, I’m sorry I’m not there yet. These damn kids are home, they’re distracting me. And having her husband say, it’s all right, relax. If we don’t get there, we don’t get there. Just kind of close your eyes with me. And he just kind of started rubbing her hair and getting her body back to calming down. But again, it’s that acknowledgment of the pressure, because if she don’t share it, he doesn’t know. And then he’s going to get on top and try to speed things up and it’s only going to make things worse. And they’re like, they can’t talk about the elephant in the room. It’s not her fault that she’s not ready. That’s what pressure does. It gets in the way. It’s a block. So the more that we can work together, and get our partners help. It’s so much easier to deal with pressure in relationship than it is in isolation.

Laurie Watson [00:27:30]:

Yeah. And I think what you just described is a sexually securely attached couple, but they also had these motives. A little bit of approval got in there, but then they talked about it and so they went back to that intimate connection.

George Faller [00:27:46]:


Laurie Watson [00:27:46]:

Which facilitated pleasure and then they were back connected. So, I mean, as we become better lovers with each other, we’re going to miss, we’re going to be at cross motive sometimes. And I think, like you said, for the approval, if it doesn’t have to be my performance validates you as a sexual being and you as a good person or as an experienced lover or whatever. If my performance is not on the line anymore, I can talk about it. And then of course, sex is so varied and wonderful and there’s many things we can do to resolve it.

George Faller [00:28:25]:

I want all our listeners to get the crossroads right in that moment. That couple’s laying in bed, she’s feeling pressure. If she doesn’t say anything, she doesn’t engage. The pressure only increases. He will try to sense something and try to kind of engage in a way that’s going to make the pressure even worse, which is going to turn into his own pressure. And this couple’s in trouble because they have no outlet for this pressure. And the pressure kind of takes over the bedroom. That’s doorway one. Doorway two is this lady names her pressure and she gets help with it. The help, her partner feels closer to her in the process. And before you know it, the sharing of the pressure becomes intimate and it leads to a very different outcome. It’s not chance why that second door led to better sex than the first one. Right. And that’s the takeaway for hopefully some of you listeners. It’s okay to feel pressure, that’s part of sex, but being able to talk about it is going to make all the difference in the world.

Laurie Watson [00:29:24]:

Right. Being able to talk about it and also remembering that our partner may be feeling pressure too.

George Faller [00:29:31]:


Laurie Watson [00:29:32]:

Just holding that in our mind so that when we talk together, we see both sides of it. That’s the solution to performance sex. So thanks for listening.

George Faller [00:29:43]:

Keep it hot, y’all. Quick shout out to Rebecca Jorgensen and her new exciting game to help couples.

Laurie Watson [00:29:52]:

You can find it on the couple connection system. But if you get to the website, you’re going to find this. This is really a cool thing that we want you to take advantage of because it’s very reasonably priced and it basically takes principles of attachment and how you connect, how you can communicate better. It gives you communication starters, conversation starters. It is really a fun thing. We’re using it at our party this weekend for our therapists. We’re going to introduce it to them. It is also a. Physical thing because it has a mat that you kind of walk around and do these exercises with. The mat assists you to kind of stay focused with each other and grounded because you’re facing each other and you’re moving through this, which we all know, right? Our bodies and our emotions are connected, so it’s beautiful, resource, good stuff.

George Faller [00:30:43]:

Highly recommend it. Check it out.

Laurie Watson [00:30:45]:

That’s couple connection system.

Joe Davis – Announcer [00:30:51]:

Call in your questions to the Foreplay Question voicemail dial eight three three my foreplay that’s eight three three my. The number four play and we’ll use the questions for our mailbag episodes. All content is for entertainment purposes only and should not be considered as a substitute for therapy by a licensed clinician or as medical advice from a doctor. This podcast is copyrighted by Foreplay Media.

Speaker Ads [00:31:15]:

Hey, guys. I’m Natalie Pouche, and I’m the host of your new favorite podcast, humble and Hungry. It’s time to grab your cheese board and your favorite bottle of wine because we’re having a girls night, and we’re about to embark on a whole new journey as we juggle motherhood and blindfully navigating through our 30s. We’re talking life, drama, dating, and everything in between. I recommend listening to Humble and Hungry on the Iheart app on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Close.