Laurie Watson [00:00:00]:

The people’s choice. Podcast awards are out. You guys, it’s the 18th annual People’s Choice Podcast Awards, and we need your vote. We are in it right now under the health section. That’s podcastawards.com. You go on register, please vote for foreplay. We would love your support. Thank you so much. This would really help us spread our mission if we can get recognized in the podcast Awards for the People’s Choice.

Joe Davis- Announcer [00:00:24]:

The following content is not suitable for children.

Laurie Watson [00:00:29]:

Welcome to foreplay sex therapy. I’m Dr. Laurie Watson, your sex therapist.

George Faller [00:00:34]:

And I’m George Faller, your couple’s therapist.

Laurie Watson [00:00:36]:

We are here to talk about sex.

George Faller [00:00:38]:

Our mission is to help couples talk about sex in ways that incorporate their body, their mind, and their hearts, and.

Laurie Watson [00:00:46]:

We have a little bit of fun doing it right.

George Faller [00:00:48]:

G. Listen and let’s change some relationships. So excited. Laurie. Another in person training. Philadelphia unleashing the power of sex and EFT for therapists. October 4 and October 5. This is one of our favorite trainings to do. It’s such a need out there to empower therapists to keep their focus better in session and know how to help couples facilitate these bonding conversations through sex. Most of us don’t grow up in families talking about this stuff, so get some of the tools that you need. Have some fun. Engage with other therapists. It’s great to be back in person.

Laurie Watson [00:01:26]:

Oh, yes. It is so great to be in person. We had so much fun in our last in person training. I mean, people actually laugh at our jokes. And I got to say, some of what we’re doing, I think it’s pretty cutting edge. We’re working on stage one and stage two. For those of you who are therapists and EFT, you’ll get what we’re talking about. But even if you’re not an EFT therapist, there’s a lot here that you can learn about how to talk with couples about sex and how to become more expert at it.

George Faller [00:01:53]:

And if you’re a listener and you do have a therapist and your therapist doesn’t know about EFT, tell them. You know what? I think you should check this training out. I guarantee they’ll come out of that training with some new tools, which is that’s what we’re in the business of, right? Creating change with new tools?

Laurie Watson [00:02:08]:

Yes. So come join us in October in Philadelphia.

George Faller [00:02:13]:

All right, so, today, we’re super excited to have Dr. Stan Tatkin on with us an awesome clinician researcher, teacher, ted Talker, developer of the packed psychobiological approach to couple therapy, bestselling author.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:02:30]:

I love the book.

George Faller [00:02:31]:

Wyatt for love. He’s got a new book out today. He’s got many books, but he’s here to talk a little bit about in each other’s care. So welcome, Dr. Stan Tatkin.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:02:40]:

Thank you, George. I got to say, your accent for me, already builds credibility. I just assume that somebody with your accent is credible.

George Faller [00:02:50]:

Well, at least somebody believes I’m credible. Thank you. Tell that to my wife. She don’t think I am half the time.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:02:58]:

Does she have an accent? Oh, no. She’s from California.

George Faller [00:03:01]:

They don’t have accents in California. Right.

Laurie Watson [00:03:04]:

No accents. Pact is based on attachment theory as well. In part. Right?

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:03:09]:

In part. It’s a polytheoretical approach. That the development part. The developmental part is based in infant attachment. Infant brain development? Brain development throughout the lifespan. So neurobiology. And also including the autonomic nervous system.

Laurie Watson [00:03:28]:

Nice. Thank you. Thank you for coming to be on our show. We’re glad to have you. Could you start with a little bit about your book? You said you wrote it for people who are securely attached, and that means what? Being free from anxiety.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:03:43]:

Which book did I write for people who are securely attached?

Laurie Watson [00:03:45]:

Well, we were wondering if you wrote for those eight people out there that.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:03:49]:

Were going to say, no wonder book sales are really low. Are we talking about the same book in each other’s care? It is not.

Laurie Watson [00:04:00]:

It is not.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:04:01]:

No, because we don’t have great stats to show how much of the population is actually secure insecure. But we do have experience as clinicians, right? I’m sure you do.

Laurie Watson [00:04:14]:

Friends, family and partners.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:04:17]:

And just looking at the culture in general that we’re more on the distancing side as a culture, maybe the west in general is that way. But secure attachment, not quite sure how many people are not so no. The book was written for people who had already read earlier books. Wired for Love and Your Brain on Love because I left out a lot of the science and I left out the attachment material referred to it and focused simply on common complaints that I have heard over the years in my clinic and addressing it through the lens of secure functioning, which is basically not attachment. It’s based on social contract theory, social justice theory. That in order for people in a free and fair union to get along over the long run, they have to create a shared purpose and a shared vision of where they’re going and shared principles of how they’re going to operate in order to protect each other from each other and the union. Or they will fragment. All unions, no question about it, will fall by the same fate. So that’s why I wrote the book. Egged on by my irritation during the COVID period.

Laurie Watson [00:05:40]:

Oh, a good time to write a book during COVID for sure.

George Faller [00:05:43]:

I love how you talk about Stan. Most couples think they’re better communicators than they, that the majority of communication is often faulty. We miss each other and we don’t even recognize we’re doing that. So I think that’s a great way of just normalizing for most of our listeners that you got to be a little bit more intentional about your communication because you’re probably worse at this than.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:06:06]:

You think we are. This can be proven. Even today just happened earlier in a meeting. People are mostly misunderstanding us most of the time. That is a fact. Think about it. In the beginning, language was used for run, duck, lion, eat right, stop. Think of our language today. So, yeah, we’re not understanding each other. And the way we try to tell each other things is also sloppy. So that’s a problem.

Laurie Watson [00:06:40]:

Well, we’re particularly interested because on foreplay, we talk a lot about sexual conflict and insecure sexual attachment, as well as how it integrates in our world with emotional connection. And we’re interested in how you kind of work with couples about that. You said that you help couples get into flow and that they can actually co regulate better and get into flow. Can you talk about that a little bit with us?

George Faller [00:07:09]:

Do that in 30 seconds. All right.

Laurie Watson [00:07:12]:

We want all the answers. We want all the answers right now.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:07:15]:

I don’t know that I get people into flow. I introduce the idea in psychodrama. I set the stage for it when we do bedroom scenes, which we do a lot. And those are, by the way, for your audience, are PG, not creepy. Pact is for the therapist is really an investigative approach. We’re investigators. We’re looking under in every nook and cranny, trying to get to the best version of the truth, knowing that there is no absolute truth, but we want to the best version of the truth. And that can only be done by rigorous investigation, even a granular investigation, and no place more importantly than in the area the three of us are talking about, right? Intimacy, love making, sex, all of that. So flow is a state that if we’ve had that experience, we seek it. Musicians seek it. Poets, painters, writers, public speakers, people who make love. We all want that kind of sense of I am not self aware in the way I usually am. I am in the moment, I am in the game, I am in the play. Something is being channeled. I am not self conscious and I’m not performative. All right? That would be the opposite. And there’s some pain involved. This is very interesting, a recent study about pain being a precursor for flow and for great pleasure, which kind of makes sense. So if you think of a musician, which I was, am still, but was, and the flow that musicians feel when they are doing jazz, there’s a stress to it. There’s an exertion to it. There’s pain in that exertion, but there isn’t a self consciousness in it. And the pleasure is what comes out of that. What comes out of that is creativity, is connection. Something kind of weird that is being communicated among musicians that can’t be duplicated. We can’t really explain it, but we’re on the same wavelength and same with comics. Everybody understands this, and it’s easily disrupted, easily disrupted by at least three areas of the brain that are involved in predicting planning, especially predicting our next mistake. And these areas that are fancy and energy and resource consuming also take up a lot of bandwidth in muscle movement and fine muscle movement. So our body can’t actually operate when they’re active. The ice skater is going to screw up when he or she is thinking, don’t turn your ankle out. Don’t turn your ankle out. Right? And then they do. So how not to do that, right? How to turn those areas off when they’re on? That’s what I try to stage. And one of the ways to do that is to direct one’s attention and their senses. Like a meditation, like outside meditation. I’m pouring all my attention, Lori, on your eyes, the pupils, the colors in your eyes, the shades in your eyes. I am touching your face. I’m fully involved tactically in the touch, in the examining of your face and your body. I crowd out any other thought by keeping my attention, my eyes and my hands, because I can’t control my mind where it is. And that, after a few minutes, turns on what’s called a spotlight focus in the prefrontal cortex, and I begin to tune everything else out. Only this exists, and that’s what we’re trying to achieve. And there are ways of actually doing it. Whether somebody does it or not, I can’t guarantee because it’s a practice, but.

Laurie Watson [00:11:26]:

It’S intentional focus on the other that you hope you can’t control this, but the result would be they get into flow and then they have that sense of connection with each other. And you’re speaking George’s language when you talk about sort of the brain and what’s happening in the brain. This episode is brought to you by Special K. However hectic life gets, the fuel you choose matters. So Special K has made two new irresistible varieties. Special K, high protein with real almonds, a rich chocolate flavor, and 20 grams of protein. And Special K with 0 gram of sugar packed with cinnamon flavor, 20 grams of protein and two net carbs. Visit Specialk.com to find a retailer near you.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:12:14]:

Our brain messing with us constantly, and we have to understand how it does that. Okay. Go ahead, George.

George Faller [00:12:20]:

What I love about your work, too, is you’re encouraging partners to really pay attention to micro expressions, eye contact tones, like, most of us don’t get any training, and we think we’re talking to our cognitive brain all the time in problem solving. And so much of the communication is going on underneath the surface that’s influencing what’s happening, but no one’s even aware of it. So you’re very intentional with that, right? You’re trying to get couples to look at each other, noticing when they look away, what their tones are. Can you tell our listeners more about that?

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:12:49]:

Well, what we’re doing is we’re combating a natural process across all of biology, which is energy conservation. So energy conservation allows us actually to exist. Otherwise we’d be a car that would heat up and burn out we would never be able to operate in the world because we’d have to learn things anew every time. So everything new that we come across is going to be relegated to cheap memory. Basically anything novel will be old soon and that’s to give way to new novelty, otherwise we would never learn anything new. So the good part about that is a relationship becomes easier. The bad part about that is we think we know each other and we don’t and we stop paying attention and we start turning to other novelty and we lose the idea that we’re strangers constantly having to get to know each other. We think we’re family and we get bored, we stop looking. We actually carry a picture image of our children, of our partner’s face for weeks, even months without ever looking. That’s how energy conservation automation works. We’re automated creatures. We’re mostly going through the day operating by memory recognition systems or pattern recognition and not thinking critically at all, not paying attention at all unless it’s new, right?

Laurie Watson [00:14:24]:

So the parts of us in the bedroom that enjoy surprise and novelty, we’re actually the ones who sabotage that by not looking at our partner, not seeing them, not believing that there’s more to them than what we’ve made up in our own head.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:14:40]:

Yes, because nature cares about our survival, not love, doesn’t care about relationships that’s on us, cares about procreation, cares about continuation of the species. That’s about it.

George Faller [00:14:53]:

I want to say, and I just want to repeat what you’re saying because I think it’s so important that we talk a lot on this show about the secret to any relationship is based on the quality of engagement. And what you’re saying is loving partners and committed relationships, their brains are just built to stop paying attention to each other over time unless we’re willing to combat that and be very unintentional. It’s coming for all of us, right? And it’s not a sign of mistrust or a lack of love, it’s just the way our brain operates. It’s so important.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:15:25]:

Most everything that happens may feel loving or unloving but I can tell you it has nothing to do with love. Even attachment has nothing to do with love, has to do with survival, safety and security. We’ll stop, it feels unloving, looks unloving or looks loving, but it isn’t. The kind of love that I care about is earned love. What you and I do for each other day in and day out. How we protect each other, how we do things that are based on what we agree are the best things or the right things even though they’re the hardest things to do. That is what I’m after. A purpose centered relationship based on a high bar of what we want and what we never want. Having nothing to do whether we feel like it or not. And that’s an uphill climb with most people, including me.

George Faller [00:16:22]:

But you also don’t get laurie, I.

Laurie Watson [00:16:25]:

Just said a commitment.

George Faller [00:16:26]:

Well, also, we don’t want it in.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:16:28]:

A particular way, but it’s to the self. It’s for the self. It’s not a commitment. If I commit to you, lori I’m doing it for me. Right. But a lot of people don’t for our own integrity. It’s how I’m going to learn about myself. I know that you’re going to be disappointing. I am. We’re all disappointing. We’re all pain in the asses. We’re all burdens. Right. We know that. We should know this. So I go into this knowing that you’re going to become old soon. To me, in my mind, in terms of novelty, maturity and commitment, is that I’m going to look for the novelty in the ordinary. That’s how I deepen my understanding of myself, of another person, of the world. There is no other way. Otherwise, I’m just going and sleepwalking. And the same with a career. We choose hopefully one thing that we’re going to become experts in, not because it’s perfect, but because we perfectly fill that vessel and we commit to it and where we understand everything. Right. I mean, it’s a fractal of everything because we’re learning about ourselves, but that’s a higher level of thinking about commitment. Right?

George Faller [00:17:42]:

Yeah. And hopefully in that purposefulness and intentionality, there’s a lot of still room for fun and playfulness because this stuff can sound really serious at times, how hard the work is. But I hear what you’re saying, that in being in the present moment is where we’re going to find the most freedom. Otherwise we’re sleepwalking, right?

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:18:05]:

Yeah. And that’s just the nature state of the human primate. That’s just the way we are. It’s not a criticism, it’s just how we’re built. And so we just have to be smarter than the average human primate.

George Faller [00:18:18]:

I think a lot of listeners are going, all right, it’s not me and I’m messed up. This is okay. I just got to find out how to be more intentional. So let’s take a quick break and we’re going to come back and try to talk about how we can be more intentional, especially in the bedroom.

Laurie Watson [00:18:37]:

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George Faller [00:19:09]:

They are amazingly soft. And all these sexual pursuers out there now are like, got another idea, something.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:19:14]:

Else to no, no, I’m serious.

Laurie Watson [00:19:17]:

If you are a sexual pursuer, you should definitely buy these sheets for your partner. I mean, buy a couple of sets because they are so wonderful. It is sort of like a new sex toy. These sheets, cozier sheets, they’re made by Bamboo. They’re like breathable. They’re luxurious material. They are amazing. Oh, and they also make pajamas, like lingerie loungewear that is super flattering and elegant.

George Faller [00:19:40]:

And they’ve been on Oprah’s favorite list for four years in a row. So obviously they’re getting a lot of attention.

Laurie Watson [00:19:46]:

Well, and they should be, because they are the best sheets. And I am a total Egyptian cotton person. No, I am always doing this from this time forward. So Cozy Earth provides an exclusive offer for our listeners. It’s 35% off site wide when use the Code Foreplay. So please go to cozyearth.com and use the Code Foreplay for 35% off these sitewide products. Trust me. Sexual pursuer buy them. Uber Lube. It’s a luxury lubricant. Can you say that three times fast? Uber lube. Luxury lubricant. Basically, it’s pure silicone bliss. It is made from superior ingredients. It has skin, soothing vitamin E, and it goes on just like natural moisture. And it lasts a long time. There’s no drip. The glass bottles are truly beautiful. You can leave them on your bedstand. I do no problem. Nobody notices. And it’s basically like this thin, slippery silicone formulation. It reduces friction, which is great, but it doesn’t reduce sensation, and it stays slippery long enough for lasting pleasure. They have travel friendly, toughened glass bottles. You can slip it in your gym bag. You can slip it in your purse. You can be ready whenever. Try. Uber lube. The silicone lubricant@uberlube.com. Use the Code foreplay for 10% off. Really, it is the best lubricant on the market. We are doing a couple’s retreat on September eigth, so please keep that in mind in your schedule. For your fall schedule. We want to give you a heads up. We’re only doing one this year because our training schedule is getting crazy. But we would love to invite you to our couples retreat on September eigth. It’s by Zoom, and you can find it on our website. Fourplacextherapy.com.

George Faller [00:21:38]:

Nice. And we just completed Training therapists. Two days right on sex. Had over 100 therapists. How much fun was that, Laurie, to just kind of, again, get all these questions? We don’t have all the answers, but we’re just again, that excitement is just trying to help us all get clear and clear and start leaning in this direction because it’s such a great need to help couples talk about their sex lives.

Laurie Watson [00:21:59]:

It was really fun, and we’re excited to do it again for our couples. We always have fun with people who are wanting to work on their sex life and come to us. They’re always anxious, what is it going to look like? And I’m glad to email you a little bit about that talk with you so you can get comfy.

George Faller [00:22:17]:

Nice. And who don’t want to be comfy?

Laurie Watson [00:22:24]:

Okay, so we are back with Stan Tatton, we are glad to have you as our guest. Stan has written an amazing new book, and it’s called In Each Other’s Care. We really encourage you to go out and get that and order it or buy it at your bookstore if you still have a bookstore nearby for secure.

George Faller [00:22:42]:

And insecurely attached couples, right?

Laurie Watson [00:22:44]:

Yes. For all of you out there. And he has a really large section in it on sexuality. And, Stan, just so that we can kind of understand how you would help this problem, we want you to talk to us about the common problem of one person wanting perhaps more sex or more intensity in their sexual relationship and the other person seeming to be pushed back by that. Not wanting as much sex, not wanting sex, maybe even at all. And how do you work with this dilemma?

George Faller [00:23:16]:

Can we even play with this where we can be the couple and you could kind of help us?

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:23:21]:

I do that a lot. I love doing that.

Laurie Watson [00:23:24]:

Okay, we can role play now.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:23:25]:

You’re in separate boxes. Normally, I would be facing you together so I could see leakage, because I’m looking for what you’re I need to put you under stress so I can.

Laurie Watson [00:23:41]:

See that would be stressful for sure.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:23:44]:

Because that is where I’m going to get most of my information. Not by what you say, but what your bodies do moment by moment. Right? You’re going to leak when you’re under stress. Otherwise you’re just going to tell me what you want to tell me. And that’s easy, right? So without that, we’ll just play it and see what happens. So, George Laurie, explain to me what is exactly the problem.

George Faller [00:24:11]:

Nothing’s happening is the problem, Doctor.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:24:14]:

Nothing’s happening. You mean, like, right now things are happening? What do you mean, nothing’s happening?

George Faller [00:24:18]:

I’m talking about we want to come to therapy to improve our intimacy, and we try to talk about this, but nothing changes. I mean, she’s just not really in a mood all the time.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:24:29]:

So time out for a second for the audience. My first job is to find out what this is. In the medical field and in the psychology, there are two tracks what is it and then what to do about it. Unfortunately, because we’re humans and we want to help people, we jump right away to what to do about it and have no idea what it is. This is a highly complex area in a very good way. In a very good way. And we have to sort of parse piece apart what is true and what is untrue, what is perception, and what is something that we can actually view as a clinician and see it live. Because I don’t believe anything that anyone tells me. Not because people lie, which they do, but people mostly don’t know what they’re doing at any given time or why. And in the absence, we all make it up, right? We all make it up. So I can’t believe I have to see what they do. So here we have a general who knows what they’re talking about, which is common, and so I have to drill down and find out. Specifics. So what is he talking about, Laurie? Specific.

Laurie Watson [00:25:41]:

I think that he seems to want sex frequently.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:25:46]:

Seems to? How do you know he will ask me for sex, by the way, that’s a qualifier. Seems to is not definite. So if I keep getting that, I’m going to wonder about Lori and her ability to be declarative and to say what is and what isn’t so seams is very not clear. So seems right. So how do you know?

Laurie Watson [00:26:10]:

So he will ask me for sex, or he’ll touch me in a way that says he wants to have sex.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:26:17]:

And what happens to you when he does either of those things?

Laurie Watson [00:26:21]:

I mean, I kind of would argue that I don’t like sex. I actually do like sex, but he’s working all the time, he’s really busy.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:26:32]:

And that’s called deflection. I’m going to stop Lori because that’s deflective. So that’s another thing that I’m going to track if she does it a lot, actually. Lori, the question is what happens to you when George says, I want to have sex and or touches you in a way that cues you? What happens to you?

Laurie Watson [00:26:54]:

Generally, I think I feel on guard because I don’t feel connected to this man.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:27:01]:

And do you know what you do when you are on guard? Do you say something? What do you actually do to signal to George that you’re on guard?

Laurie Watson [00:27:13]:

I might tell him that I’m tired or say, maybe if it was in bed and he touches me, I just might not cuddle up to him, or I might just kind of lie there.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:27:27]:

So you don’t tell him the truth, for one. If you do tell him something, you don’t tell him what is actually true and or you don’t say anything. You just behave in a way that signals to him you’re not interested.

Laurie Watson [00:27:40]:

I am often tired, so that would be true, but I don’t necessarily want to start a fight and say, I don’t want to have sex with you. That is true.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:27:49]:

So you’re afraid of conflict.

Laurie Watson [00:27:51]:

Yes.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:27:52]:

So in this very short time, I found out a lot about Lori. First of all, linguistically, that she talks in a way that is slightly deceptive. That doesn’t mean she’s a liar. It just means that she’s not straightforward. She’s not saying what’s true. She deflects, and that’s important to intimacy. It’s important also that she does not say what is actually happening to her partner, who is supposed to be her confidante. Right. They’re supposed to be in the foxhole together. So right away, there’s a problem with true intimacy. At least one of them doesn’t talk, doesn’t say, and so that is a symptom right there. So, George, is it true what she’s saying? Or do you notice that she locks up, tightens up when you make advances?

George Faller [00:28:42]:

Yeah, I notice. She doesn’t engage. She doesn’t respond. She doesn’t move closer. She will either roll over or say she’s tired or, like you said, deflect, or she does something else that is not continuing what I’m hoping for.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:28:58]:

And of course, you then go say, sweetheart, what’s going on? Tell me what’s actually happening. You do that, right? That’s called a presumptive technique, which therapeutically, basically makes an assumption. Of course you do this right? Which I know he doesn’t.

George Faller [00:29:17]:

Right.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:29:18]:

You don’t. So neither of you this is called going down the middle. So neither of you actually are intimate as best friends, you don’t talk. You don’t communicate at all. That must get in the way of a lot of things.

George Faller [00:29:34]:

So what should I be communicating, then?

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:29:37]:

I’m saying neither of you seem to feel like you can be yourselves in this relationship. You seem to be operating as if you’re not the single person that you depend on. You’re not making use of each other. You are not intimate with each other on a speech language level, on letting each other know what’s actually true. And why is that?

Laurie Watson [00:30:03]:

I think for me, if I say I don’t want to have sex tonight, it’ll make him angry.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:30:09]:

So what?

Laurie Watson [00:30:10]:

Talk to me for three days, and so I want to avoid that.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:30:15]:

Okay. The two of you can handle each other being angry, right? The relationship can handle it. Or are you both endorsing the idea that the relationship, say, the two of you, is too fragile to handle the two of you and messiness? Is that something you both endorse?

Laurie Watson [00:30:33]:

I think that yeah, it does feel pretty fragile to me when I don’t have a partner for three days to help with the kids and talk with. Yes, it does feel fragile.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:30:45]:

Do the two of you allow each other to do things like this, go missing? Is that how you set up shop? That it’s. Okay. As a team, as a union, that depends on each other to do business, right? You got to do business to just go missing because you feel like it.

George Faller [00:31:04]:

That’s the way we’ve been operating.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:31:06]:

Well, it’s the way you’ve been operating. Is that a policy? Is that written?

George Faller [00:31:11]:

We’ve never made that explicit.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:31:13]:

Okay, let me ask you, should you both be allowed to do that? Is that good for the union? Is that good for the relationship?

George Faller [00:31:22]:

Nope.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:31:23]:

Lori, what about you?

Laurie Watson [00:31:24]:

I don’t think it’s good for our you don’t?

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:31:27]:

Another qualifier. You don’t think it’s good? When will you know?

Laurie Watson [00:31:31]:

I guess right now. I don’t think it’s good.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:31:35]:

She has a hard time making declarative statements, which must be hard for you, George, because you don’t have anybody to push up against. Right? If the two of you aren’t taking a stand for what is best for the two of you, then you’re going. To get into fights. You’re going to get into fights and you’re going to act as if this isn’t true, that you’re not both generals, you’re not both co executives sharing power and authority. Nothing happens without both of your agreement permission. But it’s not being played that way. Am I wrong? In other words, Lori allows George to do something that is not only self harming, but harming to the union, which is self harming and doesn’t stand up to George and say, hey, you can’t do that. Sorry, I can’t. You can’t. That’s not good. So deal with me. So there’s a structural thing here where the two of you don’t seem to you haven’t seemed to have built this thing based on your custom needs only, right? We’re going to co construct this thing called a relationship which really doesn’t exist except in our heads. We’re going to co create it anew based on our current desires, the culture that we want to co create. And a lot of most people don’t do this and that’s why relationships like these don’t last or last, but aren’t happy nobody stopped to organize it and build it. Yeah, go ahead.

George Faller [00:33:08]:

No, if we could fast forward, what would it look like if we did the work with you? How would we both respond in this moment that would be aligned with these new values and principles that we’re kind of working through.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:33:21]:

You would know your culture and you would know based on the two of you making it and molding it yourselves and holding each other to those ideas. You would be far safer and more secure, which would give more room for play, for fun, for enjoyment, for freedom. But you can’t be free if you don’t know what the limits of this culture is or what this culture is. Right? You’re playing according to your own ideas, but you’ve not combined them to see whether they are something that’s good for both of you. You didn’t stop to do that. And so you’re going to get into trouble because you’re flying a plane that’s not fully built, right? So first that because that’s going to settle the two of you down significantly. Makes the relationship easier because you know what we’re to do and what we’re not to do. So say us both. So we already know that the intimacy problem is deeper than they know, that they can’t be themselves in this relationship. They don’t seem to understand why this relationship actually exists. What is our purpose? Are we in the foxhole together? Are we a survival couple that has each other’s backs at all times? Do we share all information with each other because we’re in charge of everyone and everything and we have to know the same things? Are we each other’s confidants, which is free? You don’t have to pay for it in therapy, right? It’s there. Or are we operating in silos as one person psychological systems which we know will not work downstream. So a lot of these, you’re really.

Laurie Watson [00:35:03]:

Challenging them to have kind of a very open contract or agreements with each other so that there’s no mystery in what’s happening. They’re being direct with each other and.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:35:14]:

That creates the security, right, which frees up resources. It’s a resource problem. If I’m feeling the least bit threatened by you or I’m feeling too much interpersonal stress, not only am I going to get sick because we know stress, chronic stress is going to lead to an early death and to a multitude of mental and physical illnesses because it’s causing wear and tear right on the brain and the body. But also, why should it be? So why can’t you and I decide, make agreements? We’re going to make sure I’m going to make sure you’re going to make sure that the other is absolutely safe and secure at all times. Because we can and because the world will never do that, right? So that’s the first thing to make our relationship easier, to free up resources, to do everything better. Everything better. So it’s a resource problem and that’s going to enter the bedroom as well. So again, a lot of it is a misunderstanding of why we exist. What’s the point of us? It cannot be love or emotion because that comes and goes. It cannot be the kids because we’re just tools. We don’t exist as the people who started this thing. Right? We’re the creators. So it has to be imagined as having a solid image, purpose, vision, something greater than ourselves. Otherwise we’ll do what every human being on the planet will do, and that is under stress. I’ll do whatever makes me feel better at the cost of doing the right thing. All of us will do it. All of us, without question. Not because we’re bad, but because we’re human.

George Faller [00:36:51]:

And I would imagine most of our listeners have never had anybody help them talk this way. They didn’t grow up in families being this explicit, right? So they might be like, what the heck did I just listen to? I wouldn’t know what to do here. And that’s the resources that you’re trying to give to your readers out there that say, hey, there’s a system, there’s a way of doing this. You can get some structure in place that will really help you get more on the same page. To be in that foxhole together.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:37:19]:

Yes. In other contexts, we learn this in the military, in Special Forces. You cannot be in Special Forces unless you drink the Kool Aid. I’m not important. The person to my right and my left are more important than me because they’re going to save my life. That changes the game. That makes us interdependent. Our lives depend on each other. We have the same things to gain and the same things to lose. Therefore I belong. That’s very different than what couples do. Couples come to the table with a variety of expectations and entitlements that are found only in family. But couples are not a family. They’re co equals equal power and authority, terms and conditions. This is not about love. This is about this is the greatest thing that we can possibly create, and we’re continually creating it, co creating it, or I’m out or no deal, right? But the attachment system fouls things up because nature endowed us with a biological mandate. I can’t quit you. Right. And we think that’s love. It isn’t. It’s a very primal, primitive, existential threat to survival that keeps us glued in. That’s a good thing, but it’s a bad thing if it’s not a place where we leverage to negotiate the very best deal. Right. We are afraid if I ask for this or expect this, we’ll be left. And so that’s how I get unhappy. That’s how I settle, that’s how I get resentful, because I don’t see myself as a general and you as a general. I see myself now as demoted. And I play that game because I’m afraid that you won’t be as afraid of losing me as I am of you. So I don’t stand for principles that would benefit both of us.

George Faller [00:39:08]:

I really appreciate how you’re presenting this, though. It’s an invitation for people to become a little bit more present and to know themselves and their partner better. It’s not an accusation. If you’re not doing this right, it’s not your fault. You’re not doing this. But that’s what growth and development is about. It’s about becoming more conscious. And that’s really the invitation that you’re presenting to all our listeners, and we really want to thank you for that.

Laurie Watson [00:39:31]:

And we talk a lot about protecting each other in a partnership, so I appreciate that. That idea. I really liked your image of to my right and to my left or my partner in front of me, that they’re the person who’s going to save my life. So we have to prioritize them and think about them. Thank you so much for being with us.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:39:50]:

If people want to contact, it’s stan@thepactinstitute.com oh, yeah.

Laurie Watson [00:39:55]:

We’ll have all your contact stuff on our website. Okay, thank you. Bye bye. I appreciate so and you know, it’s different than what we do in EFT, right? I think that what you were trying to say as we ended. I’m not sure that was on the tape, but as we were talking with know, I think in EFT, we really honor the defense. We honor the person’s protection because we know it comes from an entrenched, automated part. And we believe, I think, that with empathy and validation, a person will be able to let go of it sooner. And I think for him, my experience with him was sort of more of a confrontive way of being to try to kind of shake it loose from the person. And my experience in EFT is that just doesn’t work. I can’t get that to work. Maybe he can, but I can’t.

George Faller [00:40:49]:

I’m glad our listeners are hearing different styles, and that’s all we’re trying to do. To me, a style is an intervention. If you’re going to confront somebody and hold up the mirror and they buy in and they’re like, yeah, I can see that, then it works great. But if that confrontation doesn’t work, you have to pivot. You have to be able to move with it and kind of go in a different direction. Right. Which is so much of what we try to talk about in EFT, that flexibility to move. But there are a lot of different strokes for different folks out there, and we’re just giving you a flavor of so I’m sure we’re going to get some writings of people saying, wow, I never thought of that before. That I think that might work. And other people say, what the hell was that?

Laurie Watson [00:41:30]:

I think our pursuers are really going to like that. Like, hey, nailed it. I think that one of the things I learned was this idea, right, of consciously and intentionally constructing your implicit agreements. Like, is it okay for him to go away for three days and not talk to you? And do you confront him? And we know, of course, as a withdrawal, probably not, but certainly that’s where we’re aiming, is to help people negotiate better, more explicitly, and be more direct with each other about what they need and reach for each other, all of that.

George Faller [00:42:07]:

When he said, do you get angry? I mean, do you tell her your hurt feelings? I’m like, no, there’s not much of a choice in those moments because it’s so quick, those emotions. Right. I don’t think I’m trying to lie, but to try to help people recognize that’s not intimacy. When I protect myself, just like you’re not being intimate. And that’s what people do. Right. When we both protect ourselves, we’re not being intimate. We don’t have each other’s back. And that is the facts. But how do we get couples in protective places to take the risks? There might be different ways of going about that.

Laurie Watson [00:42:39]:

Yeah, exactly. Okay. Keep it hot.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:42:43]:

Yeah.

Laurie Watson [00:42:44]:

I would love to invite you. This is women only, but we are having a retreat in Asheville on November 10 through the twelveTH, and it’s going to be a slumber party. And so we’re going to all stay together in the same cabin. It’s a beautiful space, and we’re going to have meals brought in and made, and we know who the chef is, and so it’s going to be wonderful. Maybe drink a little bit of wine, if you’d like to. And we have kind of some talks and time to work together on your sexuality. So the whole goal of this women’s sexuality retreat, the slumber party, is to basically enhance and develop yourself, your erotic self inside. So we’re going to be talking about anatomy and physiology and sexual attachment. We’re going to talk through blocks? What stops us? What are the breaks against our sexual expression? And then what are our gas pedals? What are our turn ons? How do we open up more sexually, like with enhanced sexual pleasure? And we’re going to talk about orgasms and roleplay and using joys and fantasies and some stuff. And each night we’re going to have a pajama party where we just relax and sit around and talk on the deck and hang out together. And then on Sunday morning, we’re going to set our focus and have concrete steps toward sexual engagement with our partners.

George Faller [00:44:07]:

Sounds pretty awesome. Laurie and all the men. Don’t worry about it. Maybe we’ll have like, a Spartan camp out somewhere, have a couple of beers, and we’ll do our own version of that someday.

Laurie Watson [00:44:18]:

That would be great. So, love to invite you. I will post it on Foreplaysextherapy.com under Resources, and there will be the retreat, the scheduling events, and you can link and figure out if you can make it with us on November 10 through the twelveTH in Asheville.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:44:37]:

Call in your questions to the Foreplay Question voicemail dial eight three three my. Foreplay. That’s eight, three, three, my. The number four play, and we’ll use the questions for our mailbag episodes. All content is for entertainment purposes only and should not be considered as a substitute for therapy by a licensed clinician or as medical advice from a doctor. This podcast is copyrighted by Foreplay Media.

Speaker Ads [00:45:00]:

Hi, I’m Sarah May, and I’m the host of your new favorite show, help Me, Be Me. It’s a self help podcast for people who hate self help. Help Me, Be Me is full of practical tools to help you overcome a variety of emotional challenges delivered in a way that’s caring but frank. So if that sounds up your alley, I would invite you to check out Help Me, Be Me on the Iheart app on Apple podcasts or or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks