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Joe Davis – Announcer [00:00:30]:

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Laurie Watson [00:00:32]:

George when we are in recovery from the sexual negative cycle, there’s two kinds of things that we’ve talked about together when we teach therapists, two different longings that need to come forward and be expressed. And I just want us to go through that together today.

George Faller [00:00:51]:

Let’s do it.

Laurie Watson [00:00:54]:

Welcome to foreplay sex therapy. I’m Dr. Lori Watson, your sex therapist.

George Faller [00:00:58]:

And I’m George Fowley, a couple’s therapist.

Laurie Watson [00:01:01]:

We are here to talk about sex.

George Faller [00:01:03]:

Our mission is to help couples talk about sex in ways that incorporate their body, their mind, and their hearts.

Laurie Watson [00:01:11]:

And we have a little bit of fun doing it. Right.

George Faller [00:01:13]:

G listen and let’s change some relationships.

Laurie Watson [00:01:17]:

Okay?

George Faller [00:01:17]:

Yeah. This is cutting edge stuff. That’s why it’s fun working with you. Laurie as we keep trying to push the edges and get a little bit clearer, we do. We talk a lot about this overlap between the emotional and the sexual cycle. And there’s a lot of focus on when you are not feeling safe. You might get rejected, you might fail, you’re going to get hurt. I mean, the heart of a negative cycle is because people have an Ouch, and they don’t know how to get help with that ouch.

George Faller [00:01:50]:

They protect themselves by going away, by getting angry, by pushing or pulling. So trying to get help with the ouch, that’s the key to the emotional cycle. You don’t need your protective moves if you can get help with your ouch. But if I feel like I’m failing and I could share that to you in a way that you can hear it and help reassure me and say, even if you fail, it’s okay, or I don’t think you’re failing, whatever. If you could help me with that, I wouldn’t need to go away with that failure. Yeah, with your anger. If you could get help with the sense of rejection or not being interested, that triggers the unfairness and a protest, you wouldn’t have to get angry.

Laurie Watson [00:02:28]:

Right.

George Faller [00:02:28]:

But if you could say to me, hey, it just feels like I get down on me because it doesn’t seem like you want to engage, and that pulls me towards you, I comfort and reassurance. So we spend a lot of time on this, and I think our listeners need to keep doing that. That’s the secret to a secure relationship, right? Asking for help instead of protecting yourself. Yes, but it’s not enough.

Laurie Watson [00:02:52]:

With the sexual, it is not enough.

George Faller [00:02:56]:

And this is big news, because if you just get reassurance with your hurts and fears and it ends there, things have calmed down. But you don’t have a positive cycle. To have a positive cycle sexually, you need both partners to be open and exploring. We know what great lovers look like, right? You need to free up that energy and redirect it towards exploring your own wants and desires and fantasies and putting that into action with your partner. That’s what a positive sexual cycle looks like.

Laurie Watson [00:03:27]:

Exactly. Because it’s not just your partner says, oh yeah, I’ve rejected you for so long, I can see that that’d be hurt. It’s like yeah, you have. And it was, okay, now what are you going to do about it? It’s not that they just have to come forward and give you sex because that would not be enough either. They have to engage with their own eroticism.

George Faller [00:03:49]:

Well, let’s take a look at what would that look like for the sexual. We’ll start off with the sexual withdrawal, and then we’ll get to the sexual pursuer. Okay, let’s go through these two layers. What might they need in the emotional part of it for the reassurance? And once they get that, what would the longing be sexually and how would it express itself?

Laurie Watson [00:04:10]:

Yeah, so, I mean, certainly as a sexual withdraw, you constantly get messages that you’re not a good enough sexual partner, that you’re failing your partner, that you don’t give enough, that there’s something broken in you sexually. And so some reassurance where your partner deeply sees you, sees your blocks, sees what’s held you up, has kindness toward that and empathy, like, oh, I get it now. I get why you’ve been so blocked. And I get that you didn’t mean to personally hurt me, that caring and understanding is very healing for a sexual withdrawal. Or I get that I was so pushing and so pushy that it just made you go away. My part in the cycle, when I own that and the sexual withdrawer hears that and believes that their partner is taking responsibility for their part of the cycle, those are good things and they need to happen.

George Faller [00:05:10]:

Exactly. So step one, the emotional cycle needs the reassurance. The mature gets messages, they’re failing, they’re coming up short. They’re not enough so they can share those fears and ask for help. And that help might be can you tell me I am enough? Can you tell me I’m doing a good job? Can you tell me even if I do a bad job, it’s okay, it’s not a big deal. It’ll be good the next time. All of that responsiveness to the fear was what builds such crete? Amazing safety.

Laurie Watson [00:05:41]:

Oh, yeah. And then I think the second step too, is in that freedom, in that safety, I have to engage with my erotic core, with the thoughts that I have that are sexy, that maybe I have pushed back for many good reasons.

George Faller [00:06:01]:

I want to be the sexual king.

Laurie Watson [00:06:03]:

I want to be the sexual goddess.

George Faller [00:06:07]:

Right. Can you tap into that force, that vitality? Right. That energy that’s lurking in all of us that wants something? We’re designed to want something sexually to engage that way. How do we tap into that force, that sexual withdrawal, that wants something out of this act?

Laurie Watson [00:06:25]:

Yeah. I have rarely, rarely, rarely ever worked with a sexual withdraw who doesn’t reengage with the inner part of them that feels sexual. And it’s so exciting to see that. George many times they come in and they say, I don’t really care if I ever have sex again. And then as we uncover it and we go through the layers, they actually have erotic parts that they’ve just dismissed or diminished, and then they start to talk about it. It’s like, Well, I always wanted to try this, or I do like, this kind of touch, and I need more of that. Or as they engage with that place, it is so exciting. At least as a therapist, it’s so exciting.

George Faller [00:07:12]:

I’m a big fantasy. I love fantasies and knights and castles and dragons, but this is like excalibur, the search for the Holy Grail.

Joe Davis – Announcer [00:07:21]:

Right.

George Faller [00:07:21]:

It’s like you have to go on a journey, and it’s an inner journey. The withdrawal has to want to explore, who am I sexually, what turns me on and what turns me off. And see the value in that. Life has not given them much space to want to go on that journey. But now that they’ve freed up a lot of this energy from all these fears, it’s like, now’s your time. Find the Holy Grail, whatever version of that looks like for you. And I couldn’t agree more. Every person that goes on this journey finds something, and anything they find is more than they had.

Laurie Watson [00:07:56]:

Than they had.

George Faller [00:07:57]:

It’s just that first step is the hardest step. It feels so daunting, and it feels like, oh, you got to have to feel so bad about yourself and not know. No, it’s like there they’re just trying to tap into it.

Laurie Watson [00:08:08]:

It is. And so now I’m just imagining you and Kathy are having this Night Princess fantasy roleplay thing. Is that what goes on in the Fowler bedroom?

George Faller [00:08:17]:

I don’t know, but it sounds good to me. I don’t know, if I tried that one, I could pull a sword out of the stone and be some fun stuff happening.

Laurie Watson [00:08:27]:

I had some friends who he literally dressed up in a suit of armor to propose to his wife.

George Faller [00:08:33]:

There you go.

Laurie Watson [00:08:34]:

Yeah, I guess she was turned on, man. Okay.

George Faller [00:08:39]:

Sometimes what turns us on might not turn on our partner, but, hey, we can deal with those. Cross those bridges where they I think.

Laurie Watson [00:08:44]:

The night, though, that’s a pretty good turn on for a lot of women, so that’s probably pretty good.

George Faller [00:08:51]:

Some women don’t want to be saved. They want to be the knight. Right. So again, maybe we have two nights with each other. Who knows? We work with it.

Laurie Watson [00:08:57]:

Yeah, we can take turns being the.

George Faller [00:09:01]:

But that key is the proof is in the vitality. It’s in the energy. Right. It’s like part two is you got to tap into something in you that wants something. That knee on the bed that says, hey, there’s something in this that I’m going to like, that I’m going to find enjoyable that is worth what I’m doing. Now, if you can find that and you could find that in a million different ways, but finding that is the key to success in which you are reengagement.

Laurie Watson [00:09:31]:

It is. I know for me, there are times I live limited in a female body with not much testosterone and the knee on the bed. For me, I always remember the orgasm. I mean, I always think about that. And it’s like I want that. Even if I don’t feel a spark or a hint of arousal, like nothing. But my mind is like, oh, but I want that. I do want that.

Laurie Watson [00:09:56]:

I remember that. I remember how good it feels. I remember how good we feel. I particularly remember my husband laughing about that. He just laughs every time I have an orgasm. He thinks it’s so funny.

George Faller [00:10:10]:

I had a wife I was working with and she wasn’t going to have an orgasm because they didn’t have enough time. But what did she want? She wanted to feel this sense of connection with her husband.

Laurie Watson [00:10:25]:

Oh yeah.

George Faller [00:10:25]:

To feel him inside of her, to know how good that feels for her even without the orgasm. But she found her want, right? So again, the key is the want. You’ve got to get something out of this. And can you articulate it? If you’re a sexual withdrawal, who can articulate I want this and this is going to happen in this encounter. You’re there. You found the grill.

Laurie Watson [00:10:48]:

Exactly.

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Laurie Watson [00:12:21]:

So what about the sexual shall we come back and talk about the sexual pursuer and the two longings that they.

George Faller [00:12:28]:

Have different energy, right? The sexual withdrawal. We’re trying to get them to reengage what has been blocked. The pursuers, they have it these energies there, but because it’s been shut down, it shows itself in frustration, resentment, all these negative emotions that really are on too much of a turn on.

Laurie Watson [00:12:50]:

Yeah, true.

George Faller [00:12:51]:

So, yes, that’s a good idea. Let’s come back.

Laurie Watson [00:12:59]:

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Laurie Watson [00:14:15]:

And then they also have a piece that sexually longs. And I think many long term sexual pursuers who have been burned know, actually need to be re engaged sexually and risk again and learn to be seductive again and turn that energy back on.

George Faller [00:14:34]:

So, Laurie, let me just backtrack a second and just try to make it clearer on what we mean by longings, because a lot of people hear that word and, like, OOH, some mysterious thing. Really not that mysterious, right? So every emotion, every ouch, hurt, fear, those negative emotions, which is the core of why people protect themselves if we really listen to them. That’s the importance of leaning into these negative emotions, because not only do they tell us the problem, but they also tell us what we need. That’s all the longing is if we’re hurt, we need reassurance, we need a hug, we need understanding, we need that shift from isolation and the pain. Towards what connection can do, which leads to feeling lighter, warmer, safer, comforted. Comforted. Connected. Right.

George Faller [00:15:26]:

So how we get from the negative to the positive is listening to the needs. And given the needs, what they’re asking for that’s really all along is so let’s talk about these sexual pursuers in the emotional cycle. What are they needing?

Laurie Watson [00:15:42]:

They need to be accepted for their desire. Right. Rather than being rejected. Or maybe they need to feel like their partner does think they’re attractive. They need reassurance in some way, some comfort for all the losses that they go through.

George Faller [00:16:03]:

Sure. Absolutely. So again, listening to the fear, the fear is I’m not wanted, I’m not enough. And then it leads to the shame in that place. I’m broken, I’m too much. That’s oftentimes pursuers feel like they’re too much because they want sex too much. So the need in that is to be wanted, to be needed, to be desired, to get that reassurance that says, I see your pain, and your pain matters to me. I had a pursuer tell me.

George Faller [00:16:40]:

She asked her partner. She says, when you walk away from me, not only do I feel alone, but because it happens so often it’s happened so often in my life, I actually believe I deserve to be left alone. Because who I am is just mean and ugly and repulsive and nobody would want it. So again, you got to go into that pain to listen to the longing. The longing is and it’s hard for her to even believe somebody would want, would you want me in this ugly place where I don’t want myself?

Laurie Watson [00:17:14]:

That just kind of hurts my heart when I hear that. But that’s what happens, right? Repetitively. If you’re rejected from a person who is your attachment figure, who you love desperately, there’s hardly any other way to go with it.

George Faller [00:17:29]:

But if you have the bravery to listen to it, asking for help, there is the solution. That’s what turns a negative cycle into a positive. When she says, can you love me in a place I don’t love myself? And her partner, her husband’s heart is broken. He has no idea. She goes here, he says, I’m so sorry, of course. And he comes and he scoops her up and he gives her a hug and he says, I want to be the person who loves you when you can’t love yourself because I don’t doubt in my love for you. And this is easy for me to do. And what do you think that’s like for her to have somebody find her in this place and try to reassure her?

Laurie Watson [00:18:06]:

Yeah. And the person that she most wants to find her in that place.

George Faller [00:18:10]:

Absolutely right. The game changes. So when we talk about that emotional cycle, needing some safety to kind of just lower all of these kind of pig hurts that are kind of running the show, which is driving the protection. So once we get that and the pursuer feels a bit safer. Now we got to shift to that second cycle. How do we access their sexual energy that has been rejected and repressed and it’s turned into this kind of twisted, frustrated, resentful kind of place. How do we get their mojo back? Right. That energy that wants to express itself in these free, liberated ways.

Laurie Watson [00:18:54]:

Yeah. Because if you’re having sex and you’re angry and you’ve deserved it all along, and you convey that it’s not so sexy no. And you don’t feel so good about it right. It’s the drop in the bucket against all the things that you wanted so you can’t enjoy it.

George Faller [00:19:14]:

A sexual pursuit. The moment he had an orgasm, he’d go right to, and now it’s going to be probably five more days until the next one. His brain goes right to the worry and couldn’t stay in the present moment of the connection. Right. And what a miss for both of them. So what would it look like for that pursuer who’s been able to get reassurance? Like, how do we get them to stay and access with the withdrawal? It’s about going on a journey and finding their kind of sexual energy. That pursuer has found it, but they’ve kind of lost it because it’s covered up with all this crap, all these layers of anger and resentment. And once we free that up, we want to see that.

George Faller [00:19:55]:

That’s what I’m calling the mojo back.

Laurie Watson [00:19:59]:

We want to see them be able to be free again, uninhibited, not fearful of being rejected. I mean, they got to bring their sexual ideas again and all of that, which is so scary, I think if you’ve been rejected over and over yeah.

George Faller [00:20:17]:

And again, what would it look like to say, hey, I really would like as we orgasm, can you look at me in the eyes or can you take charge tonight? I’m so much sick of making decisions in this world. I just want someone else to make the decisions for me. That playfulness. To try to do something different.

Laurie Watson [00:20:38]:

Yeah. Right. I want to be the submissive one, the one who is asked, the one who is wanted. Can you do all of the work to get us to the sexual moment? Especially if they’ve been carrying all that work for so many years.

George Faller [00:20:52]:

But you can see how it’s unhindered, the expression, right. When you start to feel safer. It could be like, we just had a great weekend, we made love at the fireplace. I feel so connected to you. You know what? But Thursday, I had such a warm day, I just want to have something different. Let’s have raw sex, let’s just come home. Your partner might not be in a mood for it, but you can tap into what you want and just put it out there without all these layers of protection that the negative cycle starts to create.

Laurie Watson [00:21:23]:

Yeah. Without all the fear and just saying again, what you want without kind of the vigilant checking, is it the right time to say this? It’s like just being in touch with what I want.

George Faller [00:21:35]:

And if that vigilance slips in, that’s the emotional cycle needing some reassurance again. But once we get that reassurance, we’re just hoping these pursuers can have a clear image of what their sexual expression looks like, free of that, because it’s been so weighted down and contaminated with all these layers of frustration and resentment, they have lost that mojo. So again, that rediscovering it again is just trying to kind of send these clearer signals that this is who I am and this is what I want here’s that want again and I’m putting it out there without all these reservations and conditions and things that typically it’s been packaged with.

Laurie Watson [00:22:19]:

Yeah. I asked a sexual pursuer, do you put out your fantasies? And they said, no, I don’t. Because they had been so caught in the fight of whether or not there would be sex, whether or not there would be enough sex that they really didn’t even know their own sexual fantasies, their own sexual heart, like what they wanted. They were just caught in the power struggle with their partner and so they didn’t actually develop their fantasies and what they might have wanted. So I think in some ways sexual pursuers are not always the most uninhibited and free. So they too have to do work, I think, in terms of developing who am I as a sexual being without the struggle. And maybe the struggle started very early in their relationship, but now without it, how can I be more free and be more in touch with my own sexual fantasies and desires and needs and things that I could bring creatively to the bed?

George Faller [00:23:20]:

Yeah. We all have some withdrawal and pursuer in us.

Laurie Watson [00:23:24]:

Absolutely.

George Faller [00:23:25]:

So it’s very common for a sexual pursuer because focus on their partner and the rejection that there’s not a lot of space for them to explore themselves too. So both people are going to try to find that Holy grail, right. Who am I? And now my partner is doing it too. What does that even look like for me again? And get back in touch with that. So that’s a good point. We oftentimes assume pursuers are the experts on what they need because they spend so much time when that’s actually not correct for so many pursuers.

Laurie Watson [00:23:54]:

Right, exactly. So they have growth in the sexual realm to do too.

George Faller [00:24:00]:

Yeah. So those layers asking now that you got the freed up energy, can you join me in this new place? Can you celebrate my energy that wants to risk and express itself? Can you initiate too? Instead of just being responsive, can I tap into my confidence again? And to me that’s a big part of what has been lost through the negative cycle. That part of me that can be fun and playful and all that positive emotion. That’s the other side of the rainbow, right? From the negative, we want to see both. When a negative comes, you can ask for help and reassurance. Once you get that help, you can get back to the other side of the positive. The bedroom’s. The playground, right? It’s the adult playground.

George Faller [00:24:45]:

We should see the signs of playing again. And that’s what great lovers can do, right?

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Laurie Watson [00:26:03]:

Good. I love that I would say, even though I’m a sexual pursuer and I’ve said this on the podcast before, I know I have inhibitions, things that I need to work on that make me a more free sexual person. And so that’s kind of my commitment, is like, how do I keep working on those so that I bring everything I am that is positive to the bedroom, instead of just the push, instead of just the desire for sex? It’s like, how do I bring something that is more uninhibited, more free talk, more about sex? I mean, sometimes I think, oh, yeah, I want this, but I don’t want to say that. I mean, I still feel inhibited about that. So there’s a lot of things that, as a sexual pursuer, we can continue to work on once we’re freed up.

George Faller [00:26:51]:

Right. It was self disclosing. Here, I’m the sexual pursuer, too. Not a chance that the pursuers are doing the podcast on sex, right? If we could just get the two damn withdrawals to do the podcast, maybe the world would be a better place.

Laurie Watson [00:27:03]:

Who knows that’s, right?

George Faller [00:27:04]:

But what I’m taking out of this is it’s exciting to think about, oh, my wife could go on this search for the Holy Grail. How cool would that be? But, you know, what? It’s always putting the burden on our partner. We all got to do our own journey. The more we know our own wants and our own sexual energy, the better it’s going to be. So, homework assignment.

Laurie Watson [00:27:23]:

Homework. Homework. Okay. Thanks for listening.

George Faller [00:27:27]:

Go on a journey and find the Holy Grail.

Laurie Watson [00:27:30]:

I would love to invite you. This is women only, but we are having a retreat in Asheville on November 10 through the twelveTH, and it’s going to be a slumber party. And so we’re going to all stay together in the same cabin. It’s a beautiful space, and we’re going to have meals brought in and made, and we know who the chef is, and so it’s going to be wonderful. Maybe drink a little bit of wine, if you’d like to. And we have kind of some talks and time to work to Asheville. Your sexuality. So the whole goal of this women’s sexuality retreat, the slumber party, is to basically enhance and develop yourself, your erotic self inside.

Laurie Watson [00:28:13]:

So we’re going to be talking about anatomy and physiology and sexual attachment. We’re going to talk through blocks, what stops us? What are the breaks against our sexual expression? And then what are our gas pedals? What are our turn ons? How do we open up more sexually, like with enhanced sexual pleasure. And we’re going to talk about orgasms and roleplay and using joys and fantasies and some stuff. And each night we’re going to have a pajama party where we just relax and sit around and talk on the deck and hang out together. And then on Sunday morning, we’re going to set our focus and have concrete steps toward sexual engagement with our partners.

George Faller [00:28:53]:

Sounds pretty awesome. Laurie and all the men. Don’t worry about it. Maybe we’ll have like, a Spartan camp out somewhere, have a couple of beers, and we’ll do our own version of that someday.

Laurie Watson [00:29:05]:

That would be great. So, love to invite you. I will post it on foreplaysextherapy.com under resources, and there will be the retreat, the scheduling events, and you can link and figure out if you can make it with us on November 10 through the twelveTH in Asheville. Okay, so tell us about your cutting edge training that you’re doing on success and vulnerability.

George Faller [00:29:29]:

Laurie we just keep pushing it. Coming up with a new module on the playbook of a pursuer, playbook of a witcher. Really practical, moment by moment moves of what a therapist can use. We’re so focused on what’s happening in session enough, there’s talk about theories and these global things I think most therapists are looking for, what do I do in this moment? Give me a tool, George. So that’s what we’re trying to do.

Laurie Watson [00:29:55]:

That’s awesome. I am so glad you guys are doing this work. I think it helps us be organized to see you do it. You do demos, you do explanations, teaching. It really is interactive. And I think that so many trainings. That we sit through don’t give us an opportunity for that. So what you’re doing is really important.

George Faller [00:30:14]:

No, we try to emphasize the teach it, show it, do it model of learning. You need to have some ideas, so we try to teach those, and then we try to show what it looks like implementing those ideas. But most importantly, you now got to practice it. That’s how they become yours. And that’s what we want our listeners and watchers to do, is become their own moves.

Laurie Watson [00:30:33]:

Find George and his teaching@successandvulnerability.com.

Joe Davis – Announcer [00:30:38]:

Call in your questions to the Foreplay Question voicemail dial eight, three three my.

George Faller [00:30:43]:

Foreplay.

Joe Davis – Announcer [00:30:43]:

That’s eight, three, three, my. The number four play, and we’ll use the questions for our mailbag episodes. All content is for entertainment purposes only and should not be considered as a substitute for therapy by a licensed clinician or as medical advice from a doctor. This podcast is copyrighted by Foreplay Media.

Speaker Ads [00:31:01]:

Hi, I’m Sarah May, and I’m the host of your new favorite show, help Me, Be Me. It’s a self help podcast for people who hate self help. Help Me, Be Me is full of practical tools to help you overcome a variety of emotions, emotional challenges delivered in a way that’s caring but frank. So if that sounds up your alley, I would invite you to check out Help Me, Be Me on the Iheart app on Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks.