Show Transcript for Episode 284: 3 Tools for Better Communication—Reflect, Evocative Response, Validate

Laurie Watson 00:02
George, you are a master at communication and communication techniques. I love what you did in Success in Vulnerability module 5. And I want you to bring what you’ve done there to us because I think we all need to get this about how we communicate and how we can get better at it so that we can reach the hearts of our partners. Welcome to Foreplay Radio, Couples and Sex Therapy. I’m Laurie Watson, your sex therapist.

George Faller 00:32
And I’m George Faller, couples therapist,

Laurie Watson 00:34
And we are passionate about talking about sex and helping you develop a way to talk to each other.

George Faller 00:40
Our mission is to help our audience develop a healthier relationship to sex that integrates the mind, the heart and the body. Well, thank you, Laurie, for the compliment. I think if you had a video camera in my house, nobody would be calling me a master of communication. Today, it sounds good. We all struggle. It’s a lot easier to give other people advice on what it should look like. It’s a lot harder to follow that advice.

Laurie Watson 01:08
Well, let’s start.

George Faller 01:08
Well it is good to just start off with is, if I’m talking with a couple, I’m trying to get them to realize what is the goal? What is the target? Like, If one person initiates a conversation, they’re looking for something. Ideally, the other partner keeps their focus on the person to explore what are they looking for. So often what happens is one person initiates, the other gets triggered by what’s brought up, then they want to talk about what’s going on for them, and they know the person feels interrupted. And before you know it, neither person’s listening to the other person. So that’s what I call clean transitions. Like what is the goal of this conversation if Laurie, you want to bring something up, the goal should be to focus on. If something comes up for me during that conversation, I might want to bring that up at another point, An hour later ,The next day, but you can’t have a simultaneous sharing, because it just becomes too triggering.

Laurie Watson 02:02
That’s right. Simultaneous only works in sex, not in conversation.

George Faller 02:07
So we want to set it up for bridging exercises is a Arville Hendricks a therapist came up with his decades ago, but it’s really tried to help couples keep their focus. Okay, so the first thing we’re going to teach people the bridge exercise, exercise, okay, so you got to decide who is the person that wants to share that has something they want to talk about. So in this case, it’s you, Laurie, you want to talk about, you know, your frustrations or what it’s like to be rejected when you know, you want to engage sexually, your partner doesn’t seem to want to have sex as much as you most common thing, couples fight over. Right? So you bring it up, just the very fact if you say “George, I want to talk” my body be’d like, “oh, like, here we go again”, waiting to get the criticism. Alright, and when my brain is in that place of waiting for criticism, I can’t really be empathetic or understand or explore your world. So the idea of of bridging exercises to get me very intentional, to imagine myself in a safe place, I might be at the beach somewhere, kind of laying down relaxing. The whole idea is that I, I don’t, I don’t want to get defensive, this really isn’t about me. If I could imagine going over a bridge, leaving my place myself in a safe place where I don’t have to defend, I don’t have to make it about me, I can get to all that stuff. But for the next 10-15 minutes, it’s really about being curious and being open, literally intentionally trying to get my brain and what we talked about in other episodes in that green zone, where I’m feeling safe and responsive and open and curious and playful, all that good stuff, right? A yellow brain that’s going to get defensive fight or flight response- not going to be so helpful. So this is really trying to train people, come to your partner with a green brain. And when it feels like you’re ready, you’re nice and grounded. I close my eyes. I imagine a waves I can listen to the seagulls flying by and feel as sad. My body chills out. When I feel like I’m ready. Then I say all right, Laurie, can I cross over the bridge? Because now My goal is to focus on your worlds and walk in your shoes and feel what you feel.

Laurie Watson 04:12
When I bring up something in a conversation, it’s got to be technical for me. I would say to my partner, “Hey, I got something to talk about.” And you say, “let me get in a good place first,” or, How do you do that?

George Faller 04:24
Youmight say I got something to talk about. Can we do a bridging exercise? you’re inviting me to kind of keep the focus here.

Laurie Watson 04:32
On me?

George Faller 04:33
On you. How nice would that be?

Laurie Watson 04:36
That’d be great.

George Faller 04:37
Good. Couples, have to take turns with bridges. And it’s just not one person gets a bridge all the time. It’s like, Oh, you got your bridge. And now maybe the next day, I want to bring up something too that now I need you to cross over, but being intentional and saying “I’m going to cross this bridge, leave myself in a safe place and keep my focus on you.” And if you can’t do that, you wave your hand and say sorry, I’ve gotten a bit triggered. Let me slow down. You can always go back, you know, ground yourself and come back over that bridge. Okay, you might want to write some things down things you want to talk about at another point, but you can’t talk about those things simultaneously and expect to have success.

Laurie Watson 05:12
Okay, but now I’m just like thinking of my husband lying on the beach, shirtless, you know, tan. This is not helping.

George Faller 05:20
Okay? Maybe your husband needs to go like put them in church or the synagogue, or mosque. You know, what, what’s a place that he doesn’t really need to defend himself?

Laurie Watson 05:31
Okay, he would be at the pool. He’s a swimmer. He’s a great swimmer. So he would choose to be at the pool. I was just kidding around.

George Faller 05:39
Well, it’s interesting. What I asked couples to do this exercise. A lot of them can’t even come up with a safe place. Hmm. I mean, think about that. If you can’t come up with a place where you could just be grounded, where your body can just relax, where you just feel like you don’t have to make it about you. Yeah. So some people, it’s hiking, it’s going to the mountains. It’s church. It’s the beach. It could be your reclining chair. It could be in bed. It says no right or wrong. But just allow yourself to feel you don’t have to defend yourself. We all should come up with a safe place.

Laurie Watson 06:13
What’s your safe place? Gee, is it beach? No.

George Faller 06:17
No, my safe place would probably be in the in the woods. I look at my house some days. I got too much going on. I got Woods right behind my house and I just fantasize about just walking up. Stay there for a couple days.

Laurie Watson 06:33
You do have a beautiful backyard? Absolutely. Yep.

George Faller 06:37
What’s your favorite place? safe place?

Laurie Watson 06:39
My safe place would be the mountains. I love the mountains. Yeah, I mean, I think certainly the smell of the woods and hiking and but seeing the VISTAs, there’s just something that has always been really special about being in the mountains to me. So definitely in the mountains.

George Faller 06:57
Or you could just hear it in your voice as your body starts to relax, right? That’s exactly what we’re talking about. Put yourself in the mountains, you’re part of something bigger, you kind of let go with your stresses and make it about you your body just chills. Okay.

Laurie Watson 07:12
So now we’re going to roleplay but this guy that I’m role playing with he’s at the beach, is that it?

George Faller 07:18
No, you are going to roleplay you. You’re just going to talk about your frustrations of being rejected. I’m the guy that has to now be at the beach. Okay, well, we probably should talk about some of the tools that once you cross a bridge is not enough to get you there. All right, Laurie go, you got to kind of know some things that you can do that kind of come alongside Laurie in a way that that is successful. I want to we want to talk about the basic interventions, just name them and then we’ll

Laurie Watson 07:44
okay. So yeah, we’re going to talk about reflection, validation and conjecture. big words, big fancy words. So what’s a reflection? George,

George Faller 07:54
a reflection is just that ability to repeat what you’re hearing. And most people don’t recognize the power, most of us only listened for about five seconds before we’re replying and kind of thinking about what we need to say. So just to kind of say, Laurie, I hear you saying when I walk away, it makes you feel really bad, right? It’s a gift to just allow that person to sit with their experience a little bit longer. That’s how people go deeper. reflection is just not repeating. It’s a revelation. For most of us, we’re starving to be heard. So this reflecting what you’re hearing is, is can be so powerful. And a lot of times partners, we’re not good at reflecting. So we really want you to think about how often do you just sit and reflect it also allows the partner to feel more of what they’re here. And so when I say to you, Laurie, when I walk away, I can hear you saying I makes you feel bad, my body starts to take it on as I start to reflect. It’s how we start to come closer together and join in the same experience.

Laurie Watson 08:59
And as you say it the reflection has a little heart. It’s not just parroting back my words to me. It’s, there’s there’s heart in it that I feel when you say it that way.

George Faller 09:09
Yes. Because again, I’m listening to words and I’m allowing those words to impact me. It’s just not a mirroring perfectly the words it’s about the spirit of the words, right. That’s what I’m allowed to fall over me.

Laurie Watson 09:23
Yep. Beautiful. And then we’re going to do validation. teach about that. Can you give us just a one liner about that? And then we’ll or should we come back and let’s come back. Okay. We’re coming back. We’re gonna validate when we come back.

George Faller 09:39
So for all you therapists out there, listen into our show, I really want you to check out success invulnerability.com, our new training website that we believe is taking online therapist training to the next level. It’s so focused on moment by moment practical moves, less theory to really get people to have immediate success, right? We’re trying to measure targets of change. So we can see if we’re on target or we need to adjust. And the feedback we’re getting is really excited. We’re incorporating that feedback to continually adjusted to change the schedule and come join us si ve T.

Laurie Watson 10:21
Also, I’ll just put a plug in for it as well, because I am one of the learners, this kind of instruction just is not out there, how to do the micro moves that change people’s hearts toward each other. It’s so good. So it’s reasonably priced, I just encourage you to go over to success invulnerability.com and sign up. It’s great training.

George Faller 10:47
All right, Laurie. So we got these powerful reflections. Another one as well. We call it a pocket of response, which is really basically a question you’re asking for more. And questions could be great, depending on how they land. So whenever we ask a question, if the person here in the question sees it as an invitation to expand that to go deeper, it’s great. But a lot of times people hear a question as an accusation that they’re doing something wrong, and then it’s not so great. So it’s really how your questions land. If I say Laurie, can you tell me a little bit more about feeling bad? And you’re like, you see me try. And that works for you. It’s a great intervention. But sometimes it might land in a way that your brain thinks, well, what do you you should know this already? I mean, how many times have I talked about how bad it feels? Like? That’s a silly question.

Laurie Watson 11:40
Now the person gets defensive. When I asked the question, exactly. We didn’t. Maybe it wasn’t soft enough, evocative enough or we just, they’re not in the in the space to receive that. Exactly.

George Faller 11:54
So then again, and they so if the question doesn’t work, it’s what we call a bit misattuned that we want to repair and say, you know, I’m sorry, Laurie, because, you know, yes, you have talked about this so many times, and I was disengaged, I wasn’t really listening. And now I am. So now we’re going to go into another intervention, which is validation, which is probably my favorite intervention. validation is more than just reflecting or asking questions, what it’s actually telling somebody kind of it makes sense that anybody would feel this way. It’s, it is it’s, it’s responsiveness, which is often the missing ingredient in conversations. So if you say, “I feel so bad when you walk away,” and I’m saying of course, you’d feel that way. Right? Well, you want to connect, and not only am I not coming closer, but I’m going farther away, that would feel so bad,. I hear you- that ability to hear you, to say you make sense, that that’s the stuff that really starts to bridge the distance in a relationship.

Laurie Watson 12:57
So this is George geeking out, because I mean, I think a lot of people don’t know these terms. But let’s just really quickly reflection is saying it back to the person with heart. And then there are evocative responses. We’re trying to evoke in somebody more information. So we’re, we’re trying to pull out of them something that would further explain their state of mind and their, their worry, troubles, whatever it is they’re bringing to us. We we just say, Okay, tell us more essentially. And then there’s validation, which is something that we is so hard to give to our partners, you know, because we’re telling them, it makes sense that they would feel this way when we do X, you know, and that’s why it’s hard to give it to our partners, because we are often the cause of the reason they feel a particular way. So it’s, this is the most difficult one, but also the one that feels the best.

George Faller 13:58
Yes, we’re mostly deprived of validation. So if you could just put that in the back of your mind, like this is the one that’s probably the most needed in the relationship. Yeah. Okay. But then the last one would be what we call a conjecture. A conjecture is adding words. So it’s not just asking a question, can you tell me more about feeling bad Lauria conjecture says, while that must be so hard, that must make you feel, you know, alone. You didn’t say these words, but I’m just walking in your shoes and feeling what anybody would feel in these places, but for the person that you’re trying to understand. So often, they appreciate your attempt to feel into their experience,

Laurie Watson 14:42
Because we’re using, again, our own emotions, our own imagination, to walk in their shoes, right? And give them a little bit more, make it safe for them to talk further about their experience.

George Faller 14:56
So why don’t you cross it over the bridge? Okay, and you’re gonna talk about how hard it is to not have sex as much as you’d like. And you’re gonna just see me use those for interventions. And maybe I’ll use it. And I’ll just name it just to give our listeners a chance to understand kind of what it would look like in action. So Laurie, can I cross the bridge?

Laurie Watson 15:19
Please come over to my world, cross the bridge.

George Faller 15:22
Well, thank you for letting me that I’m here, huh? So can you tell me just a little bit more about what you want to talk about? Well, I want to get a response.

Laurie Watson 15:33
Thank you. Thank you. Yes. I’m nervous talking to you about this. But I want to talk about what happens for me when I try to initiate sex and you’re not up for it, or you’re not interested in it.

George Faller 15:50
Okay, so I hear you say you really want to talk, you’re nervous, but you want to talk about what comes up for you when you want to have sex? And it seems like I don’t want to have sex.

Laurie Watson 16:01
Right. You know, if I asked you, and sometimes it’s like, you might act a little bit interested, but then it’s gone away by the evening. And then we don’t ever talk about it again. Or if I bring it up, and you’re kind of just sitting down to watch television or something. I mean, it’s like our worlds are not connecting. I mean, I just feel like Does he not remember that I wanted to have sex? Especially if I brought it up a second time? I just, I don’t know. It’s like I disconnected.

George Faller 16:44
So again, correct me if I’m wrong, what I hear you saying, it seems like we’re having conversations and I’m interested in it might be kind of heading in a direction, then all of a sudden, we’re kind of disconnected and nothing happens. So quick pause. When the you are the person sharing, it is helpful to just try to keep the conversation to a couple sentences and let your partner kind of give back to make sure that they’re getting it. If we go into long paragraphs, it’s harder for that person to kind of capture the essence. So you feel like you’re understood.

Laurie Watson 17:20
Yes. Was that a long paragraph just out of curiosity?

George Faller 17:25
It was more than like two sentences, it’s harder to hold on to when it starts bringing in other things. So I felt I yeah, I started getting lost at the end. And if you notice yourself getting lost as the person trying to reflect back, put up your hand and just say, hold on a second, because you really do. It’s important what you’re hearing, and you want the person sharing to feel understood, right. And again, if there’s too many elements that are being talked about, which a lot of times if there’s just a lot that starts to come out, it’s harder to then kind of stay engaged and make it feel like you’re getting there, what they’re sharing.

Laurie Watson 18:00
What’s interesting to me, just a little aside, but I often say Pursuers talk in pages and Withdrawers talk in bullet points.

George Faller 18:10
Right. And you shared so many important things you talked about long and I’d wanted something to surprise what it didn’t seem like I was there. The you know, the pain of the disconnection when you want something, you know, it goes it’s just a lie there. I did, right. And that’s so we want to be able to kind of stay in short pieces. So with that person can feel hard. Okay. So now so again, that’s me reflected, now I might validate. I might say something Wow, Laurie, that must be difficult for anybody when you want something so good. And then you just don’t get it. And then we don’t even talk about why you’re not getting it. You’re left alone to just makes sense of it.

Laurie Watson 18:50
Yeah, because once I feel that separateness, you know, I don’t want to ask you about what you’re feeling. If you want sex. It’s just like it’s disappeared in you. And so I don’t, I don’t know what to do. And, and I don’t dare do anything. I don’t dare ask again.

George Faller 19:12
Well, it sounds like now he has a conjecture that it’s already pretty unfair that I’m not engaging. And then you don’t want to have to do more work and have to bring it up and talk about it. It’s like, Well, I’m not going to want to do that, because that’s probably going to lead to a fight. So not only do you not get what you want, but now you put in is really difficult situation.

Laurie Watson 19:31
Right? Or I tell myself, you didn’t want to do it. And that’s why it’s kind of gone away. You’ve gone away. So the truth of it is you didn’t want to do it. So so you know if you don’t want to do it. That doesn’t seem like fun.

George Faller 19:46
Right? So let’s come back and follow up on you didn’t want to do it.

Laurie Watson 19:55
Hey, I just want to take a minute to thank our Patreon supporters. I am very grateful for what you’ve Done and we’d love to invite the rest of you in on our mission.

George Faller 20:03
Your support means more than you realize and it keeps this project moving forward. And we’re really hoping to reach greater heights

Laurie Watson 20:11
find a link on www.patreon.com/foreplayrst — And we are so thankful for your support

Announcer 20:19
Speaking with certified sex therapist Laurie Watson from Awakening Center for Couples and Intimacy. Laurie, what is an intensive?

Laurie Watson 20:27
An intensive is 12 to 14 hours of therapy all in one weekend. And it’s a way to really make fast progress on an issue that you’ve been stuck in, maybe it’s a sexual issue or a relationship issue, people will fly in maybe on a Friday, and we’ll do three hours usually get them acclimated kind of set a direction. And then on Saturday, we usually do four or five hours and Sunday morning, four or five hours as well, compared to weekly therapy. I mean, there’s just so much more you can get done when you have a chunk of time.

Announcer 20:59
How do people know if an intensive will help them?

Laurie Watson 21:02
I do an initial hour interview to make sure that the candidate is suited for that kind of deep, long work. And also to make sure that I’m the right person. And for the record, if you don’t choose to come in and see me then you don’t have to pay for that hour.

Announcer 21:16
Overcome the challenges in your relationship and your sex life. Learn more about intensives and Awakenings Center’s other services at www.awakeningscenter.org.

George Faller 21:30
So notice, as Laurie is role playing, getting the space to talk about it. Now she’s going a little bit deeper, right? She’s talking about how she’s making sense of me not engaging, that I don’t want to do it that I don’t want her these that are more vulnerable places that are underneath the anger and a criticism when I’m always kind of going away. And if I could stay engaged here. That’s a very different experience. So now I might be able to say wow, Laurie that’s again, I I often don’t I’d like to see you angry. But no wonder why you feel so bad. If how you make sense of it as I don’t want you. That makes me feel sad that you kind of go to that place where I don’t want you. I’m sorry for that.

Laurie Watson 22:18
I know. I look angry. And probably Yeah, easy defense for me to go to feeling angry. But I think inside it’s it’s more. I just feel really sad. You know, like, you know, we’re supposed to it’s the end of the evening, you know, want to connect, I want us to have fun. My body has already been kind of queued that way all day. And I I’ve been looking forward to it. And then it’s just, I just, if there’s nothing there, it just feels so empty. So sad.

George Faller 22:51
That makes a lot of sense. I didn’t know you felt so sad. But I just want to give you a hug and just be with you when you’re feeling sad right now. That’d be okay.

Laurie Watson 23:02
Yeah, no, my brains. Get ready for Uh huh.

George Faller 23:10
Well, we’re gonna try it.

Laurie Watson 23:11
I’m sure you’ve got it.

George Faller 23:13
But it’s a great example of why it’s so how hot it is. Do you think right now I can talk about what it’s like for me. And have Laurie’s brain be able to hear that? Oh, no, it’s, it’s hard enough. even putting these batteries in place to kind of keep my focus on you. There’s so many times I want to talk about I don’t mean it that way. I I’m really feeling this. And you know, and anytime I do that, and it takes the focus off your brain, you’re probably going to get frustrated. Hmm. So again, this time, we’re taking turns, it’s my turn, we’re taking turns. And it’s okay not to trust. I mean, it’s okay that I actually feel her sadness. And I feel sad too, which is how the bridge starts to really help people get connected. And when they don’t normally have success doing that you’re going to expect Lord and I trust it. Because this normally doesn’t happen. So now my job is to get again said I would make sense because I never engage in these places. So no wonder why you’re not sure what to do with that. Because if you allow your to take in that hug, right now I’m going to validate the mistrust. Right? Whenever somebody is pushing away, the empathetic response, the next move is to really be able to then give permission for that mistrust. That is a cool thing for Lori to not give. She’s too much. She’s bad, because that’s her fear. Anyway, the say your mistrust makes sense. What’s that like to hear , Laurie?

Laurie Watson 24:37
Different than what I expected. Feels good. Like, yeah, I mean, again, and I think what feels good about it is you’re still with me, instead of wanting to resolve this so that you and ask can feel better. It’s like you’re still allowing me to have my own experience my own feelings about it. So that feels really supportive,

George Faller 25:02
Right. That’s the whole goal of this step- for me to understand you better, you deserve to be heard. And you deserve to go to a deeper place within yourself. And I’m just helping give you the space to do that. And to do that I have to keep my own triggers out of the compensation. So it feels like we made a little bit of progress, what it feels like Laurie kata has said enough, and she just says, Thank you, George, for, you know, let’s be crossed back over the other side of the bridge. Okay. And then the exercise is done.

Laurie Watson 25:32
Yep. Thank you for listening to me. Appreciate that. Thank you for coming into my world.

George Faller 25:39
I appreciate getting to know you better. So thank you. What a nice way to end the conversation. Now, the next day, it’s my turn. Right to talk about my world. How are we here? What’s it like for George? Yeah, we’re gonna do that. We got five minutes for you to cross the bridge and kind of understand what it’s like for me.

Laurie Watson 25:59
Okay, I’m going in the mountains. Okay. Ready to come to your world?

George Faller 26:04
All right. Well, I’d like to talk about just how hard it is, for me, kind of a lot to have sex with is just so much pressure.

Laurie Watson 26:15
So you, you feel a lot of pressure. And that makes it more difficult for you to enter the sexual moment.

George Faller 26:23
Yes, exactly. And, you know, it feels like, like eggshells. Like, any moment, I’m about to get criticized that I waited too long, or I’m doing something wrong, or there’s something that’s gonna make you unhappy with me.

Laurie Watson 26:39
Yeah. And I, I really appreciate that. You’ve said that before that. It’s like walking on eggshells. So it’s really fragile. You could be told you’re doing something wrong. And that feels really bad.

George Faller 26:53
So thank you. And I’m taking a deep breath now. Because even right now I’m feeling like, I’m going to say the wrong thing that somehow you’re going to get upset. Like, I’m not saying the right questions. I’m doing this exercise wrong. And somehow I’m just, I’m just gonna fail.

Laurie Watson 27:09
Yeah, I get that. I know, it makes sense to me that you would have to, you know, even take a deep breath, and you’re anxious that you’re going to mess it up. Because this conversation between us messes up so often. And I know we don’t even get to your part of what you feel because sometimes I will blow up and I’ll get angry. And so I do appreciate so much that you’re here with me trying. That feels good. Thank you.

George Faller 27:40
Yeah, I guess it’s hot. I mean, I didn’t realize myself that while I’m feeling anxious, and it’s hard to access my longings that wants to have fun that wants to kind of touch and wants to make love. Because, again, as I’m so focused on what could go wrong, I’m not really focused on what could go, right.

Laurie Watson 27:58
So when you get in that anxious place, it just shuts out all your own desires for touch and play and being together because you’re afraid it’s going to, there’s going to be pressure and you’re going to do it wrong, and I’m going to be upset, and then your brain just fritzes out. You don’t feel anything sexual at that point.

George Faller 28:20
That’s exactly right. And I guess even as I’m saying a lot, I just want to find ways it just kind of reducing that. Precious, I want to have fun, I love you. I want that I missed that.

Laurie Watson 28:34
That is something I really don’t see as often I so appreciate you saying that. It’s like this conversation is so good. So as we talk right now, it seems like you’re more relaxed and feel less pressure.

George Faller 28:49
I feel like you’re getting me, I feel like you’re understanding that I do have good reasons why I can’t get so turned on It’s not that I don’t want to it’s just kind of anxiety gets in the way.

Laurie Watson 29:03
Parts of you really want to be with me. And then parts of you feel so anxious about it messing up between the two of us, that you can’t enter the moment and you shut down.

George Faller 29:17
Yes, it totally feels like it getting me again, thank you, Laurie, for kind of coming over and feels like if you really helped me kind of get myself a little bit better. Thank you for doing this exercise with me. So hopefully you’re getting a little bit of taste of what some structure can do to give you a better chance of having success. Like I got to a place that I normally wouldn’t get to because of that negative cycle. Laurie was able to keep her focus on me, which really allowed me to put words to this dilemma that the anxiety is blocking my longing. And just saying that out loud and and not leading to a fight is is a bit of a relief that it feels Like I’ve named the problem now my brain wants to go to solutions. So often, you know, partners want to go immediately to solutions where people are defended and can’t take in the advice, advice is only a tune 10% of the time, that means 90% of the time it’s missing. So that was awesome. Thank you, Laurie.

Laurie Watson 30:18
Thank you. Thank you so much for doing that with me. So that’s a good roleplay I hope people can try this. Especially I like the part where you said, you know, let’s separate it by a day. So I crossed the bridge, you cross the bridge to me first, then I crossed the bridge. And I think what was great is it was a really short conversation, right. And both of us experience kind of relaxation just in our in our respective places, and an ability to hear each other in any way and we didn’t really solve the problem. But I think there’s more closeness and connection between these two people. So, you know, problems aren’t solved in a day. But that feeling of connection is what eventually allows them to get to problem solving.

George Faller 31:06
Awesome way to end. The goal is connection, not the solve the problem. And that’s it when people experience that they have success and that communication, and they’ll want more of it. And that’s always striving for so go forth and bridge.

Laurie Watson 31:22
Thanks for listening.

George Faller 31:23
Keep it hot.

Announcer 31:26
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