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George Faller 00:02
Amazing things with drawers can do instead of withdrawing to avoid that conflict.
Laurie Watson 00:13
Welcome to foreplay radio couples in sex therapy. I’m Laurie Watson, your sex therapist.
George Faller 00:19
And I’m George Fallon, a couples therapist,
Laurie Watson 00:21
and we are passionate about talking about sex and helping you develop a way to talk to each other.
George Faller 00:27
Our mission is to help our audience develop a healthier relationship to sex that integrates the mind, the heart and the body.
Laurie Watson 00:36
Just as we began, please remember to check out Uber lube it really calm is where you can get this great lubricant and help support for play radio.
George Faller 00:45
Laurie, let’s have some fun today.
Laurie Watson 00:48
Good. I am anxious to hear what you’re going to advise us what we are going to advise people about things other than withdrawing that will help Why do we dryers with Dragan tell us?
George Faller 01:02
Hey, listen, because it works well for them. Yeah going away taking space is what makes them feel safe. They can think more clearly there’s less pressure. Right? There’s a lot of trading our culture loves this ability to be calm under pressure. So space brains calm this for a lot of what yours. Mm hmm.
Laurie Watson 01:23
And when people withdraw, it can make their pursuer anxious. Right? Exactly. So we want to give them some tools about what to do other than that. Tell us about your story. How you been doing the dishes?
George Faller 01:39
Hey, listen, I’ve been doing dishes at the Firehouse long before I started to them in my own house. But yes, there’s I’ve made I think we all want to find little ways of helping out and giving back and serving those we love. So I wake up in the morning if there are any dishes, I like to make sure it’s done. And so my wife wakes up I get the coffee right? I’m trying to it’s nice to have your day start off nice right? Right so I try to set the see trying to kind of launch us into a very successful day and I then I make my shake I want to get a nice healthy breakfast
Laurie Watson 02:17
what’s in your shake?
George Faller 02:18
I throw a bit I know some protein some yogurt you know mix it all up in there and try to get myself started right to and my wife comes down and be nice to hear a little a little Hey, thanks for doing the dishes the little smile on the face But no, what’s the first thing she says? Why are you drinking out of the you know the whatever the mixer thing is? Blender class. I should warn you that you can’t because why are you going to do extra dishes? Why am I going to pour it into a glass now I have two to two I might as well just drink it out of the one it’s more efficient way my brain works. But anyway, what
Laurie Watson 02:55
do you do when she says that like what’s what’s your typical responses?
George Faller 03:00
inside my brain says Really? And then it’s just like I’ve walked away.
Laurie Watson 03:05
Okay, so first you get a little bit irritated. Yes. And in order to not let that irritation out, you withdraw you go away. Yes seem
George Faller 03:15
and normally go away. I finished by shake and whatever next that I can come back guys, so what are we gonna get and it’s kind of gone. I’ve let Nick up.
Laurie Watson 03:23
So do you think she sees that cross your face that that little bit of irritation? Oh, sure.
George Faller 03:27
Definitely. And you know, I know, but we’re trying to figure out what I can do instead of just walking, right?
Laurie Watson 03:36
And instead of having that, that experience inside to right, like I think you know, if we have tools, and we have go twos, it reduces our own reactivity to I tell parents all the time because, you know, every once in a while people come in and they, they want to talk about their children and they’ve lost their mind or they’ve yelled at their kids or something. And I think that parents when they feel powerless, and helpless, that’s when they lose it. And I think the same thing is probably with a withdraw when you when you don’t have a ready go to, then that makes the most sense. If you just think if I say anything here, if I express my irritation, we’re gonna have a big conflict. The morning is not going to go well. Then why say anything at all?
George Faller 04:26
Exactly. And I, I love what you’re saying because it is it’s about trying to come up with a move before you actually get triggered. If you’re trying to figure this out while it’s happening, and she’s emotions just move too fast. So much of our mission in this podcast is to get people to be more intentional to put energy and effort into these conversations. So you’re set up more for success. So when we think about these withdrawals, they going away to feel safe. If you want them to not go away, then finding a way for them to feel safe is what’s going to be so critical. withdraws play a role in this themselves, like how could they make themselves feel safe? If they can make themselves feel safer, there’s less of a need to have to go away.
Laurie Watson 05:09
Right? So if they have another move that’s going to de escalate the situation, then they’ll try that
George Faller 05:15
exactly. And withdraws have to recognize that when they do go away, they’re hiding their own emotions, their own fear, they’re doing what everyone else does, which is to not really see them in these places. So I think there really is a different move for most withdrawals is to right in that moment right before they go away to notice that fear. For me that of fear of message I feels unfair, whatever it is, so for me with that class, it’s like really, I mean, it’s it’s it’s not feeling appreciated. It’s feeling kind of seen, just picked on criticize, criticized, right and to talk about that’s going to lead to a fight. So inevitably, what I do when I go away, though, is I hide my need to be seen or responded to. So I think that first part is really getting to withdraw to wrestle with themselves a little bit. And to notice that take a moment to name that feeling. And then if I feel like I’m being criticized, or I feel like I’m not being seen or not being appreciated thing, going away is not really going to fix that problem for me, it’s not going to make things worse, but it’s not actually going to get any responsiveness in those places. So how do I give that to myself? If I’m feeling a bit scared, or a bit criticized, how do I notice that and then say to myself, well, wait a second, are you actually talking about this? Are you actually trying to engage you standing up for yourself? That’s actually a sign of courage. Mm hmm. So you notice how that I start to reposition myself on how how I’m doing this emotion instead of letting they’re not feeling safe and me At least set this default move that only realize I’m doing that intentional mindfulness and say, wait a second, if I do that, right, I’m not allowing myself to be safe. Like then I have a right to actually express. It’s this making myself feel safer that actually grounds me, which allows me to stay more engaged in this process if I don’t deal with that safety piece. And so often we think the safety is just a partner responding know how we respond to ourselves can go also a long way towards making us feel grounded.
Laurie Watson 07:33
We talk a lot about that in EFT, like how to become aware of your reactivity and what’s happening in ask people to check their bodies. You know, when they feel threatened in some way, the body often is the fastest alert. I know that when I feel attacked, I kind of feel it in the back of my eyes and down my spine, you know, and that tells me I’m experiencing danger in some way. And that tells me often faster than my mind can comprehend that I’m really feeling something bad when you know when somebody is accusing me of something or criticizing me even pursuers right? often take the other side and and feel like withdrawing when they’re criticized. So where do you feel it when your wife says I can’t believe you’re drinking from the blender again?
George Faller 08:28
I feel it more of like a pressure on my shoulders like I can feel my clients my fists clenching because my my initial response would want to be to fight back to kind of Express Are you kidding me? But I also know when we go down that road, it makes it so much worse. It’s actually a quite loving thing I’m trying to do to protect myself and protect the relationship from a it’s starting to get too hot.
Laurie Watson 08:54
Right? Right. So with chars don’t always just go away. They often feel angry. They Feel all kinds of things. But in this case you’re going away is the calming it down, I’m not going to attack my wife over something a little, even if I feel attacked or something little, I’m not going to do that back. I’m just going to get a hold of myself.
George Faller 09:17
Right, I’m going to get distracted, I’m going to focus on something else, this emotion will pass and then we’ll reset and start over again in a little while. But what I’m not recognizing in that move is what I’m doing to myself, which is I’m not making space to really airy emotions, a signal is trying to communicate what we need, what to kind of change and if I’m chronically hiding that feeling, I’m not getting the solution often to that feeling.
Laurie Watson 09:42
Right, but we’re not necessarily saying go ahead and counter attack. Go ahead and and push back with counter criticism, right?
George Faller 09:52
Well, we know where that one tends to go. So it’s about trying to instead of being angry, it’s really about being more assertive, it’s it’s tapping into that part of yourself that says, hey, wait a second here, space isn’t actually going to make it’s going to make me feel safer in the immediate moment. But what it’s going to do, I know what disengagement does to my partner. And I’m also starting to recognize what disengagement does for me, which means I never get I mean, what would you do if you actually knew that underneath I felt discouraged. I felt not seeing not appreciated, I felt kind of down. I felt beat up. Right. And you I could express that in a way that you actually heard the vulnerability now, if you were my wife. How do you think you’d respond?
Laurie Watson 10:39
Yeah, I think that that would check me right. It’s like I I want to know what my partner’s feeling. And so if I heard that my actions had kind of pushed them into that place, I might have thought about how I had said that. You know how I had said that thing that had pushed them into this bad more defensive place, and Have rephrased it. I actually my husband and I had a conversation about this. And we’re kind of on opposite sides when it comes to politics. And he had said something that really was one of the first times I had heard him come to my side of the aisle, I guess. And in the morning, I said, I really appreciated you saying that, that gave me a lot of relief. And I said, and then basically, I went on for five minutes about how he never does. You know, you never do that. I’ve never really heard that it’s been so discouraging blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I can visibly see him reacting. And, and I’m a little confused because I, I felt we were in a softer place, and that’s why we could talk about this Finally, then he kind of Finally I
George Faller 11:48
finally he comes forward. So we’re gonna pile on a robot of all the times he doesn’t come forward, because that’s gonna motivate them to do what that’s gotta be on my mind. About his pursuers and how to get them to actually see the value in backing off and given space and not not piling on, but continue.
Laurie Watson 12:12
Okay, so, you know, he eventually says, you know, essentially that, you know, you’re piling on, it’s like, you’ve you’ve now just told me 10 times about how I didn’t do it. Right. And you opened with I did it right. And you were grateful. And now you’ve told me 10 times I didn’t do it. Right. And I heard it. I really did hear it. It was really hard. Because it’s an important subject to me, but I heard why he got defensive. And, and what I had done in it, you know, it was new. It was It felt good that he didn’t just go upstairs and get on to his computer, that he told me what he was feeling. And I did think Yep, I did that. I did it again. Right?
George Faller 12:56
Yeah. Oh, good for you for all in your part of it. I mean, all Similarly, if we want him to engage more, he’s going to have to have success in doing it. So if if engaging and seeing your side leads to piling on, we know what that’s going to lead to inside of him.
Laurie Watson 13:10
Well, and also, I think that the other piece, his engagement was not just about politics, right? his engagement was feeling comfortable enough to tell me why he was getting defensive. What I was doing kind of representing himself that to me was more meaningful than anything to do with politics that he came to me, explaining us from his perspective, that that
George Faller 13:33
was helpful. I love It’s how we were talking about the personas again, we get pulled right into their world, right, which this is so often what happens in relationships, as you know, od dynamics is similar to what you’re going to see with couples out there, that as we’re trying to focus on how to get the withdrawal to engage, the focus starts to shift towards what’s happening for the pursuer, right and before you know what that’s easier to talk about, because they have a lot lot of emotions, right? So you’re really trying to talk about the good reasons why you pile it on. And I find my own interest kind of swinging in that direction. Right? But then what happens to the space for that which are. So I love the idea of connecting. Before I go to part two, which is fixing or give it advice. It’s really a model that I try to live and certainly as a therapist that I’m trying to encourage my partners to really focus on. It’s like, how do you if the focus is this withdraw our learning to kind of engage? That’s where we need to keep the focus. It’s on view of that withdraw instead of what’s happening in the pursuers world, that’s a different conversation. That is really important, and we need to get to but it’s really hard to do both of them simultaneously.
Laurie Watson 14:46
I agree. But I guess I what I was trying to say was that one of the things I think withdraw or can do is represent themselves. Sure, and that that makes a difference inside even though they’re afraid It’s going to be conflictual. At least my experience was it was settling down. It felt like he came toward me. So I guess that’s why I bring it up.
George Faller 15:11
Yeah. And I love the shifting of levels. He didn’t come forward with just the information around politics. He came forward from his own experience he let you into his world, which is really what you’re looking for. Right? Right. So again, that’s that’s the question we’re trying to answer. How do we see get these withdrawals to see the value in doing that? So let’s take a break and we’ll come back and pick this up.
Laurie Watson 15:35
Okay. We are grateful to Uber lube for still sponsoring us. This is a fantastic loop. If you haven’t tried it yet. Please check it out at Uber lube calm with the coupon for play, which gives you 10% off I keep forgetting to tell people that they can support us and they can try this great lubrication, which is really it’s made out of a higher grade silicone and you know, I do all kinds of ratings on lubrications just in my work and silicone doesn’t get absorbed into the body so it it really provides smooth touch smooth intercourse a great glide. It’s scent free, it is taste free so you can switch from foreplay to oral sex to intercourse with no problem.
George Faller 16:22
Well, if you’re using Uber lube to enhance or relax your body, then it’s just that much easier to open up your mind and expand your heart
Laurie Watson 16:30
and having something fun that makes sex even better. I would love for you to try Uber lube, support the foreplay podcast and save 10% off your order when you use the coupon code for play at Uber lube calm. We’ve done two Facebook Lives for our patrons George and we try to do that once a quarter we try to send newsletters and give exclusive material, but it’s really we are grateful for people who believe in our mission to Help couples keep it hot and help inform people and help them talk about sex, help them get better at their sexual relationship.
George Faller 17:08
Right in partnering with us is it’s really an honor to know people are joining us on this mission, that this is a an effort to produce, and for the listeners to put aside time, and we hope that’s valuable. But when when we join forces, it’s just a lot easier to get that message out there. So we so appreciate the support both financial and just to make those ratings and to spread the word, because our world really needs it.
Laurie Watson 17:37
It does. And we get so many letters from people, not just patrons that are grateful for what we’re doing and say it’s changing their lives. And so if you want to help us change the world, we would appreciate that support. And certainly this is something that our hearts are in and we’ve given a lot to and you can join with us.
George Faller 17:59
All right. Laurie. So this for me these withdraw to get them to not go away. It’s a two part process. The first part is really how they see themselves, how they can start grounding themselves trying to find safety in staying right in, acknowledge, and it takes courage that they’re proud of themselves for not going away. If they can increase the sense of safety, there’s less of a need to have to go away. So it’s how they’re wrestling with themselves, that gives them a better chance of staying grounded. Part two is going to be how do they then see their partner differently? How do they get more curious about the function of that pot? This criticism, this isn’t a surprise they’ve had these conversations, to start reminding themselves to be prepared for when their partner is angry or critical that anger and criticism is really their hope that trying to motivate change, you know, they’re needing engagement. That’s the whole function of it. So really Getting that withdraw to get to be a little bit more curious to say, hey, why is my wife making this comment about me drinking out of this, you know, Blender glass, it seems pretty unfair and doesn’t see the big picture. But there’s something about that that I’m missing. That’s why she’s kind of making this critical comment. It’s the curiosity that starts to get to withdraw to take the focus off of what they’re doing wrong and put it on their partner to say, What is this about? If when I’m able to do that with my wife, it’s usually that she’s, she’s got a ready over scheduled day. Right? So when she sees that me drinking, chances off, she’s the one that’s gonna have to clean that class when it gets thrown into the sink. Like her brain has just been trained. When people don’t do their end of the work. It falls on her lap. Right? So as soon as she can point it out, it’s her chance of actually getting help. Can you work on saying that differently? Sure. But can I start seeing it’s not about trying to beat me up It’s about really wanting help. You see the different reframe on that.
Laurie Watson 20:04
Yes. So how do you do that? When you feel criticized, you feel it in your shoulders. And you’re telling yourself, this is unfair, like, help me trace that transition into curiosity.
George Faller 20:19
The difference between the best couples and the worst couples is just that ability to repair. You don’t have to be able to do it in the moment. But at some point, you got to get back to having this conversation. So in the example I gave, I did walk away. We didn’t have that conversation. But we had the conversation the next that night. So it’s it’s getting more comfortable with the same triggers. Why does my wife need to tell me I’m doing something wrong? That because it’s coming from this place where she’s overwhelmed and she needs help. When I start noticing that I start to have a different response to her criticism or she could work on saying it a little bit more. differently, but my work is preparing myself. You know. So in that moment, sometimes it’s still hard and most of the time, I’m probably still going to walk away because I want to avoid the fight. But maybe instead of walk away for two hours, I only walk away for 10 minutes and I come back and I say hey, nothing, nothing. I know that you don’t want extra work thrown on top of you. Right? You’re doing a great job. But you know, when I wake up in the morning, and I’m aware that and I do the dishes, and I straighten out and I make my own breakfast. That’s my way of trying to chip in and when the first thing I hear is not any mention of those things I did but the one thing I didn’t do, right, if that’s what’s highlighted, that really feels pretty bad for me, and I don’t want to engage. It makes me kind of go away and I know when I go away, that’s tends to settle off on negative cycle. I kind of think my wife would hear that.
Laurie Watson 21:53
I think it would be good. You’re talking about your you’re tracing for her out loud your side of As well as what you know you normally do, which sets her off. So at least i think i think the good thing about that as I’m listening is, okay, you know, my partner’s aware of their natural response. And that awareness gives me hope. Because they’re not just on autopilot anymore. They’re not going to just do it. They’re thinking about it. They know that it bugs me, you know, the withdrawal, the walking away bugs me. So I think that’s helpful to hear that.
George Faller 22:28
That’s that compliment sandwich, right? If I can start off, I know my wife’s trigger, right when I’m going away. So if I can start off reminding myself of that process compliment, my my criticism compliment. It usually gives me a better chance. So if I would say, Hey, listen, I know how hard you work. Right? And when you’re angry, you’re really just trying to kind of ask for some help. So I’m trying to not take that person. I’m trying to connect with that first. Now, here comes my experience, but You know, I really worked really hard. And when I just hear that without any of the good stuff, just the bad stuff that really feels pretty bad. Right and then finish it. But you know, that’s why I’m sharing this because I, I don’t want it to lead to that where I walk away and you feel like I’m not listening and you feel more pressure on you like, I want to push in the same direction. Right? I want to help each other because you’re so special to me. That
Okay, you like that special? I
did. I liked that special. I wasn’t sure I believed
George Faller 23:31
that’s your work to be covered on another podcast. Right? But it’s it’s helpful to know what’s what’s driving it for you. So often you’re pushing your tests and you’re asking because it doesn’t feel like I’m so engaged or that you’re so special because it’s so easy for me to walk away as a witch or I need to know your world so I can speak to it. The more I’m telling you, I feel blessed to have you. You’re pretty amazing. I appreciate all that you do. I mean that is the antidote to so Much of that criticism,
Laurie Watson 24:01
well, it’s the coming forward. It is talking about your feelings. It’s also talking about your positive feelings about her. Not just the negative. I feel criticized by you. I mean, I think a lot of times when pursuers are saying, you know, tell me what’s happening and tell me what you feel they’re they’re looking for reassurance and you’re offering that. I think you could have just said the, you know, I know I’m such a caveman. I’m drinking from the blender again, like humor might have worked, too. I mean, it was a micro
George Faller 24:34
Usually, it’s usually a move I use a lot. Do Yes. youtuber withdraws use humor a lot, because they’re trying to kind of diffuse the situation. But oftentimes, they are told that humor is inappropriate or has poor timing. So that’s a risky thing to do. So if I would kind of come out to my wife and say, you know, yeah, you’re right. I just, I’m never gonna learn. I, you know what, I don’t know. And I start laughing and she says, Yeah, you’re never going to learn I this is just ridiculous uh how that guy was really real bad once I try to stay engage with humor so just just to notice, I mean pursue is listen and that’s as much as the timing feels bad. It really is the withdrawals attempt to kind of stay engaged to not have to walk away
Laurie Watson 25:19
What about just hugging your partner saying good morning darling or something does that work?
George Faller 25:26
Again another move that withdraws often uses they don’t want words because they just want to shrink the distance with touch but a lot of times the pursuer pushes to touch away because they don’t feel understood. They feel like they just being placated with the touch. So yes, if the touch the laughter works, I’m all for it. But I really want to help my withdrawals Be ready if the pursuer can’t trust it and pushes it away.
Laurie Watson 25:52
Those are things that what worked for me when my husband makes a joker comes up and hugs me I mean that that is In de escalates for me, and I kind of see how ridiculous this might be.
George Faller 26:06
And I mean, this is a light situation. But if you think about moments where you’re really activated and you want words, you really want him to engage you to understand what’s happening. Right, then that laughter that kind of touch might not be kind of exactly what you’re looking to
Laurie Watson 26:24
that would be deflection. I think one of the things I see the most with with drawers is they try to make their partner happy. So they say they’ll do something or, you know, there’ll be home at a certain time or whatever, and, and they set the deadline too short for themselves. You know, yes, I’ll be home right after work. It’ll take me a half an hour to get there. I’ll be there. And the issue is not so much I think for the pursuer that they’re looking for as soon soon deadline. I mean, that might be nice, but they’re looking for something accurate. Withdraw doesn’t push out far enough doesn’t represent what will make them feel relaxed about that commitment.
George Faller 27:08
This one took me 10 years to learn and it’s it’s so true. I remember when I’d go out after work with the guys from the firehouse You know, my wife would always say, Well, how long are you going to be? I always feel like oh, hour, two hours tops. And like, because why am I saying that? I don’t want to get into a fight. It’s a start of it. I just want to like in my heart, I think that’s all it’s gonna take. And I just, you know, I just kind of say that to make her happy and you know, have a good time. Great. And then
Laurie Watson 27:36
you’re hearing pressure, you think you’re hearing pressure, maybe like, how long is that gonna take like, right She wants me there as soon as possible. So you respond to that part of it.
George Faller 27:47
Exactly. You’re just you’re in damage control, right? You’re just trying to kind of make it in that moment feel and yet inevitably, two hours would turn into three or four hours because you’re with everybody is having fun time to seems to move. And before you know it now I’m coming home and I’m in trouble all the time, right, which is inevitable fight, right? And just kind of recognizing if that’s the track record, that you’re better off starting with, I really want to come home in two hours. But I know in the past that hasn’t happened, because you didn’t get caught up. So realistically, it’s probably going to be three hours.
Laurie Watson 28:22
So it’s like, I’m going out for the evening after work. I’m just going to go out for the evening. And then if you get home in three hours, maybe she’s happy, you know, because she thought you were going to be out the rest of the night.
George Faller 28:35
Exactly. And that feels so much better. I mean, the rats harm I’d actually come home in two hours, it would be like, you know, I want some kind of award like it was it was really so different than those years of just the same fight over and over again. So really, in how did I make that shift? I started to recognize my wife’s perspective and how hard it is to think Be home in two hours and to chip in and do different things and then I’m not and where does that leave her? So if, if my just more accurate assessment really gives her a lot more predictability that honors her experience.
Laurie Watson 29:15
So when she says to you, how long is that going to take? Do you go through that same sort of feeling like now I’m, I’m feeling that tension in my shoulders? I mean, is it like suffocating and like she she just wants too much of me or what? What goes on? And how do you mitigate that as
George Faller 29:35
he was saying it earliest so often, you just want people to be happy. You know, if you’re, if you just say two hours in that moment, it’s going to feel like better for you. And better for your partner. Yeah, not probably it’s going to be quick and just a couple you know, I have a drink as I lead two hours boom. So like saying that in that moment, you really believe you’re hoping that’s what’s gonna happen. But then the reality is what you get out Somewhere else it turns into now other people are wanting you to hang out. What do you mean? You gotta go one boy. You know, you get that same feeling, dude, your wife, with your friends. So then you wind up doing to them what you did your wife Yeah, you want everyone to be happy, but you’re setting yourself up to kind of disappoint everybody with that kind of that that mindset. So it is about facing that more. It’s increasing your tolerance to be in discomfort to kind of be able to say to your wife, hey, listen, I know you want to hear two hours, I’d want to say that it would allow me to leave this room feeling better. But I’m gonna have to pay a lot of a big price when I come home in four hours. So I’d rather kind of handle that discomfort with you now and be upfront and say, Hey, I’m shooting for two. But our track record said it’s probably going to be four. Right? That gives my wife a lot more respect and really kind of just honoring. You know what she’s sitting home waiting, and we got to do a podcast on the other side. render that.
Laurie Watson 31:01
So when you hear it, you’re saying that the when the withdraw or hears the demand or request or complaint from the pursuer. One of the things that goes through them is they they just want to make them happy. So they’re willing, the way they’re going to respond to it is what’s the shortest way I get my partner happy again right now? Not necessarily in the future. But right now. Exactly. Tell them what they want to hear.
George Faller 31:29
They want to get it right. That’s why they’re so sensitive to the message. They’re doing it wrong. Their operating system is to make people happy to get it right. So, you know, in these little moments, I want to just tell you, I want to get it right. And I don’t recognize that just kind of saying that quick off the cuff actually sets me up to then be getting it wrong four hours later.
Laurie Watson 31:52
Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you, George for letting us in on the world of the withdraw and What I’m hearing is that you want to withdraw or to sort of become more self aware of their needs and their feelings so that they can stay in the game and also thinking about what their partner needs not necessarily just hearing the attack or the frustration from their partner and representing themselves early in the in the issue.
George Faller 32:20
you’re nailing it, Laurie, again, withdrawals are not helpless here is not all about helping them pursue respond differently to them. That’s part two. The withdrawal is part one is they gotta start understanding themselves better and start taking kind of the ownership for these moves such as happened so fast.
Laurie Watson 32:39
Okay, keep it hot. Thanks for listening. And PS please tune in to our Patreon page so that you can catch the next exclusive episode and our next Facebook Live.
George Faller 32:52
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